S5-06: Season takeaways for tackling math anxiety

As we wrap up this season of Math Teacher Lounge, we’re sharing our biggest takeaways from our incredible discussions around tackling math anxiety.

We’ve been able to speak to five great thinkers on math and the anxieties that can affect students, teachers, and even caregivers. From acknowledging math anxiety and finding ways to immediately start relieving the pressure, to redefining math and establishing positive math routines in and out of the classroom, we’ve learned so much with every single episode. Listen now to hear our season highlights, as well as some of our favorite responses from listeners! 

Transcript

Dan Meyer: 0:00

I find myself more and more curious about is there something above the teachers and caregivers that is actually determining a lot of math anxiety?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 0:12

Hi, and welcome to Math Teacher Lounge. I'm Bethany Lockhart Johnson .

Dan Meyer: 0:16

And I'm Dan Meyer.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 0:18

This whole season we've been talking about math anxiety. We've been speaking to, to great thinkers, folks who are actively researching and trying to understand math anxiety. We definitely want you to listen to the previous five episodes in this season if you haven't already. But as we wrap up this season, Dan, we are going to like, just you and I, we're gonna share some of our biggest takeaways, some open questions, what's vibe and, and I wanna know what you know, Dan, I don't get enough of your thoughts and opinions. Dan Meyer.

Dan Meyer: 0:54

Same. I should, I should put you on my newsletter list. I mean, I , I have a , like a math education newsletter, dan meyer.sub.com. Um , but also I have a personal newsletter for like non-math education ideas and theories and hypotheses. I'd be happy to include you on that. Oh , please. And I wanna say it is really good to see you too. It's been really good for me, like to digest a lot of the thinking. Yes . That went on during our interviews. I'm excited to chop that up with you today. I , I would love to know first, like as you think about how we got into this season, what for you felt like exciting and necessary about a season on math anxiety?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 1:33

Well, listeners will know that we started doing more of a theme last season. We, we focused on joy and mathematics. And so I already was really excited about having a whole season revolving around one idea so we could kind of deep dive and math anxiety. You know, we shared about it in our math stories in a previous episode. And, you know, I navigated and navigate math anxiety and it's something that I see every day in classrooms with other teachers, with other adults. Just, it's real, it's pervasive. And so I was really excited to really talk to folks who are thinking about this and looking at it from different angles. So it's been something that we've gotten really good feedback on. What, what did you, I , I don't know , math anxiety has not really been something that you said has been really present for you, although there have been moments, but Right . What did you feel? Did you feel like there were gonna be topics that were relevant? Did you feel like, what were you feeling before the season?

Dan Meyer: 2:33

Yeah, you're right. I think we have had different relationships in mathematics to mathematics. Uh, you know, you and I are like different people, different identities that have been socialized in different ways to be seen as like mathematically smart. And so I, I obviously like had a lot of that going on. So math anxiety was not like a for a lot of people that we interviewed for yourself. Maybe also, this was like a, a bit of self-study, like this was , we learned a bit about ourselves through this. For me though, I think I feel really motivated. I , I love that math is, has such a high status in the world sometimes, like I dig that cause I do math and it's big for people and the president shouts it out sometimes and says we need more math teachers or whatever. But it does seem a little bit unfair sometimes that like all these kids are experiencing really negative emotions about a thing that society says you need to be good at. And in in fact, will force you to sit and learn for 180 days a year for up upwards of 12 years of your only childhood. You've got one of them. And people, you know, like yourself, like many adults that I meet, they carry these kinds of scars from , uh, of math anxiety well into adulthood. And so that to me, like just as a social phenomenon, math anxiety to me is just really motivating . Like , I don't wanna be a part of that. I don't wanna be a part of that story. It wasn't really my story, but I get how I am visiting that story on people inadvertently how people experience that story. And I, I wanna understand it and have nothing to do with it. So that's been the , what's excited me about all of our guests. And the interviews,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 4:10

Your math story definitely involved far fewer tears than mine. But think about your role. I mean, you're , you created this, you helped to create this curriculum that is going to impact thousands and thousands of students. And the more teachers and parents and care caregivers understand about math anxiety, the better we can help turn the tide away from math as being this big scary thing. It doesn't have to be your favorite subject, but it shouldn't cause like pain and anxiety.

Dan Meyer: 4:41

Yeah, I feel apathetic about lots of subjects that I learned in my schooling, but they don't carry the same kinds of, you know, they weren't traumatizing in the way that that math was. So I , I think we'll share like a few of our takeaways. I'm, I'm ex very excited to, to learn about yours, Bethany. We'll share some of you, the audience you've been leaving, comments and tweets and whatnot. And we'll share a bunch of those. And we also have a couple of questions that are still open that we might pick up in a later season. And I think one of them is like, to Bethany your comment about like, the goal of helping caregivers and teachers do different stuff in math class to reduce math anxiety. I find myself more and more curious about is there something above the teachers and caregivers that is actually determining a lot of math anxiety? Like if every teacher and every caregiver was doing the right stuff, let's say whatever that is. Like there are ways that math is positioned in society and used for social ends that I wonder sometimes if that is part of what creates meth anxiety no matter what goes on in the home or the classroom. Anyway, I just wanna like bracket that. Let's just put that at the end. I'll be super curious to circle back on that. But yeah, for now, can we talk about some of our takeaways?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 5:59

Let's dive in. You know, Dan, we had five episodes so far. What , what was your first, what are you taking away from this season?

Dan Meyer: 6:13

So my first one I share with listener, Becks Drummond, who said the idea of validation is one I'll be passing on to my student teachers. The importance of acknowledging not only that mistakes are good, but that math is hard and can feel alienating are great messages for them to take forward into the primary classroom. So I think that like our guests walked an interesting line or encouraged teachers to do the same about what happens when someone expresses feelings of math, anxiety. And I, I was really appreciative of, of Hira Ramirez and Aaron Maloney who were talking about, it's, it's important to validate that and say, Hey, that is, that is a real thing. Like, that's not, like you're not making that up. And then also not to leave students within that feeling. So to validate it, but then not to say what we find. I think what we, what the researchers that we interviewed found for a lot of caregivers and teachers, which is that they'll , uh, say it's like, excuse it as a permanent condition. Like I always, I always , I was no good at math, so that's okay. You feel that way, there's no need for you to do anything about that. Or for a , a teacher to do the same thing. There was a line that our, our, our guests drew between validating and excusing. For instance, I thought was really useful for me, if it's been a while since you've heard Gerardo Ramirez, here's a quick clip of what we're describing.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez: 7:36

For a lot of kids, it becomes a normalized message that if you fear math, that's okay. Join the club. Right? But we have to be careful about that cuz a lot of math anxiety researchers will oftentimes say, part of what leads to math anxiety is adults normalizing that it's okay to be scared of math. So I think a lot of times adults, teachers, for instance, math teachers, they'll tell kids, you know , um, if you're scared, that's okay. And so a lot of the math anxiety community says, no, no, no, you're not supposed to do that. But my recent view is it's different. I view that as a form of validation because math is hard. And so telling kids like, look, it's actually easy if you just try. I don't think that's true. It's actually just hard. And I think even if it was easy to the kid, it feels hard. And I think something that's not really well studied right now in our field is , um, the value of validating people's math negative math experiences. We don't want to validate that cuz we think that we're gonna reinforce that. But actually I think the opposite. I think when you validate people's negative math experiences, it helps 'em to feel that , um, they can handle it. They can start to take control over their own emotions.

Dan Meyer: 8:44

What'd you think about that?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 8:46

Yeah, definitely. This idea that it's not a fixed condition, it can be challenging. This can be hard. Yes. And what's also true is that we can navigate this together. And so I also, you know, Erin Maloney and Gerardo Ramirez both touched on it and touched on that line, like you said. But I also really, you know, remember Heidi Sabnani, we were talking to her about coaches and the way that coaches working with teachers can help carve out spaces where those teachers can ask questions.

Heidi Sabnani: 9:20

If you listen to teachers, they will work with you. Like if you validate what what happens to them and acknowledge that sometimes that still happens to us. I mean, I still have experiences like that. Sometimes I'll walk into a classroom and I'm like, oh, I forgot how to do that. And so stopping and saying like, okay everybody, this is what's happening to me right now. <laugh> the vulnerability you have, you have to think about that. Even if you don't have experiences of math anxiety in your own life. Let's say you always rocked out in math and you're now a math specialist and you love it. You think it's the most spectacular things. There's some other element in your life where you face some anxiety. All of us do. So it's about thinking about, okay, like this is where I experience anxiety. Can I find that in my, the teachers that I work with? And then can my teachers find that in the students they work with?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 10:15

Because so often for teachers we think, oh, I'm supposed to have this figured out. I'm supposed to know how to do this. Or I've been teaching this for how many years, I should know it. And we're always learning, right? We're always trying to look at material in a new way or we're being asked to look at a new way, or hopefully our students are bringing new ways for us to look at it. And so can there be a space where a teacher can have permission, feel safe, and have permission to be unsure? Right? I love yeah . And , and a coach can help create that space for a teacher.

Dan Meyer: 10:55

I , yeah, I love that analog as with so much of what we do in education, the same approaches and ideas about, you know, student learning apply to teacher learning. And yeah, I love that. I, I definitely resonate with this feeling of, oh no, I don't know what is going on. Like, I don't understand how this student is thinking or I don't know where I went wrong in my solution of this problem. And for a teacher to be able to say, this is real. I'm feeling anxious, but it's not where I'm gonna stay, feels very analogous to this , what we love for students as well. Another comment that I love was from , uh, listener Liesel , um, who mentioned that ignoring people's past experiences with math isn't helpful. We need to go there, talk about it and heal from it. That was on Twitter. Um, I just think that that speaks really loudly to a dimension of the work of teaching that is about, that's , that's social, that's , uh, interpersonal , um, that restores a person's sense of themselves. So I, that was my, one of my big takeaways from our season long investigations of math anxiety. Bethany, I'd love to know what, what you took away from that season. Any big observations from you?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 12:01

I'd say one of my favorite takeaways is really this idea of redefining math. About talking about math in fundamentally different ways. So we had two guests who I feel like really touched on that Rosemarie Trulio from Sesame Workshop. She talked so much about ways that we can integrate math in just our everyday life. You know, she talked about how many moments caregivers can find to, to have these joyful interactions with their kiddos around mathematics. And of course, Rosemarie is from Sesame Workshop. And I actually, I have, I have a quick Sesame Street story. Dan Meyer, we recently introduced Sesame Street to my toddler, and he was saying something about Grover, which, hello, everybody loves Grover. And I said, oh, you mean like Super Grover? We were talking about like brushing your teeth or something. I was like, oh yeah, we're gonna brush our teeth like super Grover. And he said, two point . And I said, two point. He said, two point . And my husband had to tell me, it's Super Grover 2.0. Look at that math happening. My child is talking about decimals. And he's two years old.

Dan Meyer: 13:17

Everywhere. It's everywhere. Yeah ,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 13:20

That's fantastic. But we , I mean, is Sesame Street is so iconic and we talked about how we have these good associations with it, and it's a chance to sit down with your kiddo and experience some fun songs and games together. But as Rose Marie said, it's also everywhere all around us, and we can learn how to engage with our kiddos in these positive ways. I wanna also share a clip from Marjorie Schaeffer . She was one of our researchers and she was talking about an app, bedtime math. And I want you to, I want you to first listen to this clip about expanding the definition of math. The

Dr. Marjorie Schaeffer: 14:01

Hope is that for high math , anxious families, these interactions are fun and playful. They don't look like fights over homework. They're just conversations that families can have around topics that are naturally interesting to children. And our hope is that when families have lots of these positive load stakes interactions, they actually can see that we can talk about math in unstressful ways, in lots of ways, right? We can also do this at the grocery store. We can also do this while we're cooking in the kitchen. It doesn't just have to be fights over homework,

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 14:33

Right? So fun, joyful, low stress , casual conversations. I mean, these are words that we don't normally hear, you know, when we're talking about math. And these are invitations for us to talk about math in fundamentally different ways.

Dan Meyer: 14:51

Yeah, I, I loved , um, the contributions we had. We had like researchers on , um, like Dr. Erin Maloney, Dr. Carter Ramirez, and we had people who were more practitioner oriented, like Rosemary Trulio and I would put Marjorie Schaffer in kind of both camps where she's developing this app and also studying it. And what was great about having the practitioners on for me was that they were out there kind of proposing some novel solutions to the issue. The problem of math anxiety, where I feel like a lot of, not just, not just like this did not happen with our interviewees, but I hear a lot from researchers. They'll, they'll explain the problem of math anxiety from the perspective of how it like reproduces through parents, through caregivers. Which for me it is just, it's, it's a little bit unsatisfying. It's like, okay, well where did they get it? And oh , well, it was the , their , you know, their grand , their own parents, their grandparents and, and their teachers. And , and generationally it keeps on propagating, but I just wanna know like, how do you interrupt it? Like where did the, you know, the , what was patient zero of math anxiety, who then spread it to the entirety of the human race? And so I , I love the conversations with Trulio and Schafer where they're proposing some, some methods for interrupting math anxiety. That was a , that was really exciting. Um, and I , I , I look forward to seeing more research on what they're up to.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 16:08

Kind of tying into that takeaway, another takeaway I'm leaving this season with Dan is really figuring out how we make a math routine, right? So Marjorie Shaffer , when she talked about that at Bedtime math, she was really talking about how this can be something that families do every night, two to three minutes to have these conversations. And they really saw through their research that that it made an impact. It made an impact. And it was shifting the beliefs about when and where math can happen, right? But it, those routines don't just have to happen in the home. I loved how Gerardo Ramirez, and I wanna shout out one of our listeners, Megan , she shared that her favorite tidbit was how Dr. Ramirez suggested the teachers give this same assignment multiple times to build students' confidence, right? And help them to see their progress. And I thought that was such a fun routine. Take a listen to his clip about that.

Dr. Gerardo Ramirez: 17:10

One of the, my favorite recommendations is to keep reassigning assignments the same exact assignment for say, three weeks back to back . So if in week one you do the homework assignment, you do okay, you don't do so great when week two you do it, you give the exact same assignment and now the student can see like, wow, okay, this , this was much easier. And then week three, you give the exact same assignment that's now the kids feeling really confident . And the reason why that's great is because it helps kids to see that they're growing in confidence. A lot of times kids don't get to see that because we're constantly throwing new assessments at them. And so they're never seeing that growth. All they're seeing is a new challenge. A a new challenge. A new challenge. So I think we need to set up situations where they can feel that they're growing when we keep the assessment static. That can be a , a formative assessment, for instance, it doesn't have to be a summative assessment.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 18:01

I mean, that's a no cost potentially powerful routine, right. That teachers could do in the classroom.

Dan Meyer: 18:08

Yeah, very into it. Yeah. Uh, first want to say that you've been very encouraging to me personally, Bethany, about routines in the home for decreasing math anxiety and increasing math thinking around just like, let's count stuff up that we're doing. Or you know, like those kinds of, I don't know , like yeah, mostly around counting, counting stuff, you know , uh, or giving , uh, one kid three pieces of chocolate and the other kid, you know, like one more and say, how many more do you need for it to be equal? Like, stuff like that just been like, fun for me. And uh, so I appreciate that and we got a lot of that this season. And the other is , I like, I , I definitely agree with both you listener Megan , just like how exciting it is that a small intervention like that could help students experience, like, oh, a thing that I felt anxious about then is not anxiety producing for me now. Extremely cool. And I also wanna shout out to folks , um, who, who weave that into their assessment practices , uh, very intentionally. Uh, where, you know, like you receive an assessment on a math topic, you know, this week and if you don't do well on it, we show that same assessment to you again multiple times. This is often called standards-based grading, where students have multiple chances to demonstrate their understanding of a math topic. Cuz I don't, I don't care when you learn it, I care that you learn it. Um, so that's just a , I don't know , I found in my own practice that was really helpful for taking the temperature down on math anxiety. So I , I , yeah, I love that we're not just talking about changing your beliefs and you know, these, I what's in your head about how you define math, but really you can act your way into new beliefs. Like your assignments can help change beliefs , um, just as much as the other way around. Really cool stuff.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 19:48

I also think there sometimes when teachers are presented with an idea like that, I feel like I hear that voice in the lounge, the person saying, but I don't have time to give them the assignment every week. We gotta keep moving, you know, we gotta get through this. But like you said, it's not about when you learn it, it's like, do you learn it? And you don't have to do that with every assignment. I mean, even doing it a couple times throughout the year could be enough of a touchstone, I think, where you could say, Hey, remember how that assignment felt impossible at first? This one might feel impossible today, but remember how we revisited it? Or you know, mid-year give an assignment from the beginning of the year that, you know, felt really big and scary, but you've learned so much. And so often we don't have that space and time to pause and say, oh wait a second, here's a really like tangible concrete example of my growth. And I think yeah, like that, that diminishing uh, diminishing the anxiety by finding ways to build up your like reserves of, I don't know how to say it other than like your I can do it.

Dan Meyer: 20:53

Yeah. Your persistence. Yeah , perseverance. All that feels very closely related to ideas of math, anxiety, how to help people decrease one and increase the other. So it's been, yeah, it's been great to check in with you Bethany, on what you pulled away from the season, especially with a little bit of room to think about it. And I think that in addition to those takeaways, I also, like, I took away some open , there's some questions that are still open for me that I'd love to kick around with you just a little bit. And one of them was around the relationship between timed tests and math anxiety. And this came up towards the end as almost a , a throwaway remark with Dr. Erin Maloney. I thought she, like, she introduces it , uh, in a , from a very un uh , her own perspective. And I'm not sure I agree with it or disagree with it yet. Um , but I want to make sure that clip goes to the audience here so we can , we can think about it together.

Dr. Erin Maloney: 21:46

So I actually, again, I'm gonna be a little bit controversial, so I don't hate time tests in the way that a lot of people do. Uh, but I, so I love time to practice. So I think once we've got to a point where children have a fairly decent understanding of skill , like, of a skill, once they've got a fairly decent grasp on it, then I love the idea of the, the time to practice. So it can be still in a low pressure situation where in many ways it doesn't matter if you get the answer to the question correct, but we're practicing doing it in a situation in which you might be feeling a little bit of pressure, but it's not real pressure, if that makes sense. And I think that can be really, really useful for students. And again, it can be done in a fun way, right? Like it doesn't have to be these super intense ways. It can be fun, but I think that in life there are situations in which the time that it takes you to complete a problem matter. And I think that we have to make sure that we don't get too far away from that.

Dan Meyer: 22:47

So, Bethany, I'd love to know what your reaction was to that clip. I don't remember that. We like actually did a whole lot of digesting with Erin live about it. Uh , we just kind of said so long , see you for , see you on holiday. Cuz we all, cuz we all love each other now. And I'm not gonna like, you know, question anything you say cause the vibe is so , so great. Um , but what's, what's your take there? How are you feeling about that?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 23:08

Oh, you know, I actually asked a friend of mine whose daughter, I remembered her saying something about time test . Cuz so often you hear, oh yeah, math, anxiety, time tests , like that's the, you know, kind of the one thing that people say they can remember giving them like a moment of anxiety. And she was talking about how much her daughter loved time tests because it helped her to see like how much better she did. And it, it, it was a challenge for her. And I was like, that is such a different experience than I remember. So I , I don't know. I, I wonder about that because if a student is already , uh, when I say I wonder about that, I mean about that what Erin was suggesting, what Dr. Me was suggesting. If a student is already feeling anxious and you say, okay, we're gonna try this, but remember it's not pressure, it's, it's, we're just trying to see the time. I don't know, anytime you put time on something, again, it's that question of like, does math need to happen quickly in order for it to, in order for you to consider yourself a mathematician? I always think about that in terms of, okay, what's gonna take me, it might take me a little longer. What about my student who it takes a little longer to figure it out or I, I need a little bit more time to marinate on it and if all of a sudden I'm put in this situation where I'm being asked to time something, I don't know. I, i, I don't disagree that it could be used as a tool. I just don't know that I would trust myself as a teacher to use it in a way that would not cause anxiety. A lot time tests <laugh> , you know, what , what did you think about it, Dan?

Dan Meyer: 24:44

Yeah, I mean I, I've been tuned into some discussions of the research around this and it's, it's true that there's no, like, there's no studies that I know of that have been referred to me that say time tests cause math, anxiety, there's some real correlational evidence. Um, and it's also like really hard to study the issue because you'd have to like give one group of kids no timing and this other group, this, you have to give them this thing that is, there's, you know, anecdotal, but a lot of anecdotal evidence causes anxiety. Um, that's that there's some ethical considerations about studying it. Um, I just, yeah, I guess the question for me hinges on how much is timing , um, inherent to the work of mathematics. Like if I was trying to get good at having conversations about my relationship with my wife, for instance, that is not an area where timing is valuable. Like we, we, like, we talk as long as it takes, you know, like to have doing it quickly is not a virtue. And there's areas like , um, changing the tires on a car in the pit of a racetrack where timing super valuable. And so you'd want to practice that with a timer and get faster and faster. And for me, I just kind of questioned the premise that like is doing things fast, a part of math, I think doing things fluently, like being able to, to work with sums and products and work with numbers , um, fluently and automatically without having to , to drag, you know, relationships up out of, you know, to work them out in short term memory, working memory, again, that feels super necessary, but is doing it fast necessary. And that's why I just, to me, I just say nope. And the fact that so many people, even though anecdotally are like, this really hurt me. I'm like, okay, that's enough for me. And also the fact that there's like abundant, abundant ways to develop fluency , uh, to develop automaticity that don't involve a timer. It just, it feels, the timer just feels to me like the, like the least creative way to develop automaticity. Like look at any, pick any game off the shelf, any video game off the shelf, you know, and like they are developing automaticity in , in its players in ways that often very often don't involve timing and are often very successful at it. So those are some of my thoughts about it. It was a really provocative comment and I , I'm not like, this is not like top 10 most confident opinions Dan Meyer has, but it's like that's where , that's where I'm at right now.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 27:11

Yeah. And it , I do think it's one of those things where I would trust Dr. Maloney to, after having that conversation with her, like I would wanna know more. I would trust her to try it in a way that would reflect her beliefs about her students in a way that would not cause more anxiety. But in general, like you said, here's something that we know a lot of people feel anxious about. Let's not just let's cut it out, right? Like, why do we need to do it right? Is it, are the potential gains worth it? And I, I'm learning how to play the piano and I catch myself like it's supposed to be at a certain rate, right? It's about , you know, it's my , and my teacher keeps saying, okay, just go really slow. And then when I try to speed it up, or when I try to do it at, at pace, I feel anxious, I feel , and then I have to remember, I have to like talk back to myself and say, whoa, this is, remember this is one, this is for fun <laugh>. And two, like, you don't have to be at that speed yet, right? But eventually that fluidity will come and like you said, that fluency, that those connections will, will build. Dan remember when Dr. Val Henry joined us on our past season, she was talking about fluency and she was thinking about the timing , um, that students would be able to come to an answer in three seconds or less, right? But it , her focus wasn't about like, I'm , she's not sitting there with a stopwatch one, two, the , she's really just trying to more see is the answer there. Are they making that connection quickly? And if she was sitting there with a timer and a stopwatch, it would probably cause a lot of anxiety. I , I'm really glad you actually brought that quote up, Dan, because, you know, we definitely didn't think we were gonna solve meth anxiety in five episodes or less, but I, I think it's so good to remember that there are these open questions that we can keep marinating on.

Dan Meyer: 28:59

Yeah, yeah, definitely. And indeed may marinate on them in a future season. Who knows? Watch out. Um, let's see. I, I guess I wanna just get your thoughts on one other open question for me, which is , uh, as I alluded to at the start of the episode, everything we talked about, every guest was focused at like the home, the school or below, like all the action took place in the home or inside the school. And I don't recall much discussion of what happens like outside of the school, outside of the home. Like what, what the world is doing with mathematics and how that might affect students and their, their feelings of anxiety. So before this call, I was just kind of curious, like, I mean, there's, there's other countries in the world, which is wild and they have it , it , it winds up being the case that like math is experienced differently there. You know, like , uh, math is not a uniform abstract thing which everyone experiences in the same way worldwide. So we have these , um, these exams like, like Pisa , um, administered by the O E C D and it , it is a test of math knowledge, but it also asks students a bunch of questions about their experience in math, some of which are around math anxiety. Like they ask students , um, to, you know, agree or disagree with this statement. I often worry that it'll be difficult for me in mathematics classes, or I get very tense when I have to do mathematics, homework and so on. Questions like that. And it winds up being the case that there are countries that experience where the students experience much less math anxiety than the United States es especially Scandinavian countries, Denmark, Finland, Norway, Sweden , um, just as examples. And so I don't know, like do you have any thoughts about that? Like, about why nationally we have a certain kind of experience of anxiety that is by no means the most, we're by no means not the most math anxious country. But what are your thoughts about what, what society is doing with math that might contribute to student's sense of, of anxiety and mathematics?

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 31:06

Wow, Dan, I mean, way to like throw in that bit , you know, I guess I, I don't know. I think I just go back to the takeaway I shared about needing to really shift the conversation about math, you know, shift the conversation about what math is and the way that we talk about math. And I, I go back to how I see examples of math portrayed, you know, it's the , it's the easy joke on Saturday Night Live. It's the, the little dig in the joke book or in the, the board book I was reading to my toddler where like the mom is like stumped by a mouth problem and oh, ha ha ha you know, it, it's this kind of pervasive conversation. I kind of liken it to , um, you know, when , uh, when , uh, Michelle Obama started bringing up conversations about nutrition and about movement, and she was trying to shift the conversation about how we talk about moving every day , how we talk about food, right? And there were some folks who were really politicizing that, and regardless of your politics, she's trying to shift a discourse, right? She's trying to, right, she's trying to have a conversation about what we eat, how we move our bodies. And so I kind of feel like it's at that level. Like how do we, you know, not necessarily who's in, in the presidency, but how do we in these broader spaces shift the conversation about what math is and what it looks like and where do we see it happening in all careers in like, where do we speak back when we hear somebody saying like, you know, oh, I hated math too. Or, oh, you'll never need math, or, oh, you know, it, it , I , I don't have the answer, but I think there is a certain amount of like acceptable digs for mathematics and yeah . That, that we kind of are so used to that we, we might not even recognize that I think basically gives us like low buzz of anxiety across the nation kind of thing.

Dan Meyer: 33:05

Yeah, I, that makes a lot of sense to me. There's, there's like a lot of value in, you know, spokespeople for the value of math. That's all, that's all valuable. Like math could definitely use better, a better public relations manager. I think I, I wonder like about, for instance, campaigns, like can we just like talk, have better messages about math and , and get people who are very skilled like Michelle Obama at, at talking about them, but then there's like the, like this social stuff that happens around the message that makes the message just like not effective. Like for instance, like what good does it do for me to hear a message about good nutrition if I live in a food desert, for instance, or to hear about the value of exercise if I'm working 16 hours, for instance. Like, and so I just wonder about like the good messages about math, you know, what is above them that is limiting their effect? And a theory that I'll just like toss to you just to, just to think about is like, those digs happen because math kind of feels like Michael Scott in the office. Maybe like it's your boss who you don't respect, like math is your boss. Like math determines so much of like what jobs you are allowed to have. It determines like whether you can go to college, you know, like, oh, you didn't pass the placement exam. Like enjoy remedial math as a college freshman, which you may not get out of, you know, math is calling all these shots. And I think that people don't respect the boss for some good reason because they know that like they don't need math to be, you know, like a , a a , a marketing manager or they don't need ma like that much math to be a nurse, for instance. Um , and so like I think that's, that might be where the digs come from as a kind of catharsis , um, just like people in in the office, you know, make fun of their boss. It's cathartic. I don't know , uh, just, just riffing here with you.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 34:59

No, I appreciate that perspective and it reminds me of, we had , uh, an amazing guest , uh, from his organization, public math , uh, Omo Moses and his father Bob Moses started the algebra project and we talked about that a little bit and really recognizing math as a gatekeeper, right? Math as a way of actually preventing the lack of these, passing these certain math courses or being even open to taking certain math courses like being told by counselors, oh no, you can't take that course or that course isn't for you, was ultimately gonna prevent students from having access to certain fields , certain career fields graduating. I mean, it's huge, right? Right . And it's pervasive and I think there is a much bigger conversation and , uh, yeah, I, I'm a little distracted by you bringing up the office, Dan, cuz you know how much I love the office.

Dan Meyer: 35:51

I do. I I knew it was a risk when I brought it up, but I felt like it was a , a really useful touchstone and I appreciate you powering through. Yeah, I, you know, I don't, I don't, I do not want to be , uh, to present myself as disagreeing with Bob Moses, who is , or his son Oma , who's , they've both done so much for math and for people. I do think, like, it's interesting to me like there is a gatekeeper and one approach is to like help people get through the gate and the other is to tear down the gate. And I'm just, I'm just feeling right now, like we've offered, I think our guests have offered teachers and parents so many ideas for how to reduce math anxiety. But another approach that I hope we'll all consider is that math anxiety could be reduced if maths use as a gatekeeper were dismantled. If math were not limiting you from a livelihood you deserve as a human being, then like we'd feel less anxious about it. But right now, math is this thing that people perceive as irrelevant, but which also holds just bonkers power over your life and your ability to , to live with dignity. Tho those are two different problems we could try to solve. One is teachers and one is citizens. And I , I , I like thinking about them both.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 36:59

I love that. Dan, I really appreciate you offering that perspective. It's interesting, I think I'm not in a gate tearing down mental space, so it is helpful for me to remember that it is that the gate is constructed <laugh> and that it is not an inherent and real thing and it is something that is made. And I think sometimes I'm aware of that. And then other times when I'm like in the midst of a bunch of bureaucratic stuff that I'm trying to navigate, I'm like, well of course this is just the way it is . You know, so it is a reminder that it is a construct and it is possible to experience math in a more organic, juicy way that's just out in the world, that's just a part of our lives and really shift that conversation. So today as we're recording this, I need that reminder, Dan, so I appreciate it.

Dan Meyer: 37:56

I always appreciate , uh, chopping up big ideas with you, Bethany. It's been quite a ride this season, really. I've loved having like a single theme, a big one to dig into , uh, deeply. And I look , look forward to chopping up something equally big with you. Uh, next season

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 38:12

We have actually got some special summer episodes in the works and we're gonna be looking forward to diving into the world of AI and math

Dan Meyer: 38:20

So hot right now.

Special summer episode preview: 38:21

This new generation of AI is a step function. Different venture capitalists and those in this space are really identifying education as one of the first sectors that it will dramatically change.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 38:35

To make sure you catch all of that, subscribe to Math Teacher Lounge, wherever you get your podcast. And if you liked this season, we'd love for you to leave us a review. But even more than that, please tell someone about this right summer break if you're listening to this real time , like, as it's, as it's being released. And what better way to , uh, spread some, spread some teacher love than to say, you know what? It helped me kind of think about my practice maybe in a potentially different way, is this podcast, give it a listen whenever you're ready to listen. If you

Dan Meyer: 39:08

Folks want to get in touch with us, by all means, hit us up at MTL show on Twitter or math teacher lounge gmail.com or the math teacher lounge community on Facebook. We'd love to hear from you what you've been taken away from this season , um, and what you're up to right now in the world of math and teaching.

Bethany Lockhart Johnson: 39:25

Thanks so much for joining us and we really look forward to diving into more topics and episodes with you very soon.