Math Teacher Lounge

S5-07: Discerning the role of AI in education

July 31, 2023 • Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer • Season 5 • Episode 6

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Join us for our summer mini-series where we’ll be talking about artificial intelligence (AI): what it is, how it is already being used in education, and how it will continue to transform education in the future. In this kickoff episode, we sat down with Jennifer Carolan, general partner at Reach Capital, to chat about the current state of AI in education technology.

As a former teacher and current leading-edge education technology entrepreneur, Jennifer has so much to share on how, if done correctly, AI will become a partner with educators and a tool for fostering social learning opportunities.

For more from Jennifer, check out the following resources:

Speaker 1:

I worry sometimes that all of this excitement and this innovation, this building in this space, sometimes disregards the things about us that make us uniquely human.

Speaker 2:

Welcome to Math Teacher Lounge. I'm your host Dan Meyer. I'm flying solo today. Know Bethany here to keep my , uh, my worst impulses in check. Well , I'll see if we regret that decision. Uh, we've wrapped up our series on math anxiety, and we're now gonna spend a couple episodes talking about something fairly topical, which is artificial intelligence. Uh, if you are a teacher, odds are good that you're technologically inclined, uncles, aunts, siblings, whoever has asked you something about like, what does this mean for teaching this ? These new AI products that we're seeing pop up a lot of discussion here. So to start off our summer mini series on AI in education, we'll talk to a person who wrote one of my favorite pieces on the topic of AI and math ed tech investor, Jennifer Carolyn of Reach Capital. Uh , her piece was entitled, what AI Will Disrupt But Never Replace. I always find her so serious on the matter of building things for classes with technology and also teaching and how it interacts with students. So please enjoy this conversation with Jennifer. Carolyn , well, we are so happy to have Jennifer, Carolyn in the lounge. Jennifer, welcome to Matthew Your Lounge.

Speaker 1:

Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2:

Uh, we have , uh, sparkling water in the fridge. Ignore any brown bags that have names on them that aren't yours. But , uh, yeah, you're welcome to have anything , uh, from there that you want. But thank you for being here. Can you just tell people like a bit about your background? We've intersected a lot of different ways in our, both of our time in the Silicon Valley , um, in the Bay Area, and you've just had a very interesting career path. Can you just give a few of the highlights from your perspective?

Speaker 1:

Sure. Uh, so I grew up in Chicago, went to school in the suburbs, and then also in the city. And I had this sort of very formative experience of going to a Chicago public school my sophomore year. And this was the year Bill Bennett declared c p s the sort of worst schools in the, in the nation. I remember seeing that on the front, the headline of the Chicago Sun Times . And then I also went to school in the suburbs and had a completely different experience. So that really shaped me in ways that I didn't fully understand at the time, but probably motivated me to go into education. I became a classroom teacher, a public school teacher. I taught history at the middle school and high school level, and I did that for seven years. Um, I moved out to San Francisco area. I got my master's in curriculum in teacher education. I published my research in ed leadership and for my master's thesis, I studied differentiation or personalized instruction as some call it now. I then went to go work for a nonprofit called New School's Venture Fund, and they were combining this venture capital model and education. They tried to overlay the, the venture capital model into education and back education entrepreneurs. And so I sort of learned the craft of venture capital there for nine years. And I met , uh, Chu , who became my co-founder, and Chantel Garvey was our first hire and we spun out and formed Reach Capital Venture Fund, and we've been at it since 2011. We have four funds and we are totally focused on education, technology investing.

Speaker 2:

So I love that you have like the background as an educator. You've been a , you've been a , a student yourself. You've seen school systems that at their best resourced and least resourced perhaps . Yes . And now you're working as a , as a venture capitalist. Can you just explain for our audience, you know, high level, what , what does a venture capitalist do day to day in the education space, for instance?

Speaker 1:

Sure. So yeah, I ne when I was growing up in Chicago, I never knew what a venture capitalist was. It was not until I came to Silicon Valley and I got to meet all of these technology entrepreneurs and understand the financial system that was kind of fueling all of this innovation , um, in the valley. And so I thought, could this sort of vehicle of growth be used in the education space to bring technology and, and different tools to that space? And I was particularly interested in it because I was grabbing technology tools sort of off the shelf or making them, we didn't have, this is gonna date me, but we didn't have like digital graders, electronic graders back then. We did it all in that, that green , uh, that green sort of folder that you were given on the first day of school. And so I was really interested because I was shopping online and banking online, and I thought, gosh, this job is really hard. I'm teaching 175 students and I can't even get a good kind of greater , automatic greater for, for this job. And that really began my exploration of how can we bring great technology into schools? So to answer your question, the job of the the VC is really capital allocation. So we are given money through a lot of nonprofits, foundations, endowments, high net worth individuals, and we invest in entrepreneurs, founders of companies. In our case, it's, it's ed tech entrepreneurs that are building companies in the space. So companies like Class Dojo and , um, Desmos and Instructure Canvas and, and these. So venture capitalists back these companies early on, oftentimes when they have no customers at all. And then we work alongside them, we partner with them, support them over the years. And that's, that's in a nutshell, sort of what we do. So my job is a couple days a week I'm sourcing and looking at new companies. We have about a hundred companies that come inbound per week and couple days I'm working with my existing companies that I'm on the board of, and then I'm also managing the fund.

Speaker 2:

That's super helpful. Yeah. From the perspective of , of a teacher. Like I came to a school and we had a bunch of tools that we were using that were picked by people who were not me. And yeah , I just , I didn't, I didn't have a strong sense of like where those tools were selected from, what other options were available, how did those options come about? And that, that in my mind is where I think where you come in and reach comes in. And when I worked, you know, at Desmos you were a , a group of people that had access to a bunch of money and we needed money to grow and came to you and convinced you that we were a good bet. And that's how part of our growth story. So I think it's just interesting to think about like the , the choices that we have available, these huge companies that just feel like they are part of the air, like they're Yeah . Natural forces that have always been, are actually the result in lots of cases of people like you who make choices based in values and experience and knowledge about what seems like a good thing to give money to. That's a , a , to me, a very interesting and consequential job.

Speaker 1:

I do. I will say though, that I was stalking Desmos for many years. It was <laugh>. I was delighted when we had the chance to invest.

Speaker 2:

Well, it's , so I guess I'm , I'm curious. So you, there is a question that you have mentioned you get all the time now , uh, in your role as someone who thinks about technology and what could work in schools and what could be, you know, profitable in learning by lots of definitions of profitable. What , what is the kind of question you're getting? What's in , what's in the air right now in your world?

Speaker 1:

Yeah, so definitely ai, generative ai. And will AI tutors replace teachers? So this is, I don't know, when I'm seeing a hundred companies a week, I would say now almost half of them are, are ai, generative AI companies.

Speaker 2:

Super interesting. We will come back to those 50 in a little bit. I have questions about that. But for the sake of our audience, like AI has been around for a very long time. You know, like self-driving cars have been a pursuit for a very long time. You know how from movies , uh, you know, from way back in the day have been examples of ai. But why are we all talking about AI right now? What's been going on that's so big.

Speaker 1:

Yeah, I'm glad that you mentioned that. It has been, it has been around for a while and we've been backing AI driven companies or machine learning companies for, for many years. We backed Grade Scope and Right Lab and Mainstay, and those were companies that used leveraged AI for their solution. But this new generation of AI is a step function different. It's very different than the, the innovations that have come before. So I think of generated AI as this like umbrella term really for this sort of groundbreaking form of new creative AI that can produce original content on demand. So it's not just analyzing or classifying or categorizing data, but it can use the patterns in these large language models and existing data to create entirely new content. And that's what's so different and groundbreaking about it.

Speaker 2:

And as it as that intersects with education, why are people looking to this sector of education in particular saying, ah, like people aren't thinking that AI will disrupt every sector in the same way, but it feels like there's a lot of attention on education as a possible place where AI can go in Yes . And go wild with it. So what , what , what , what about what is so impressive about these models that has people thinking, ooh , education.

Speaker 1:

Yes. That's a , that's a great question because it , the venture capitalists and those sort of in this space are really identifying education as one of the first sectors that it will dramatically change. And I believe it's because at the core of education is about communication and learning and content. And there is a belief that AI can sort of dramatically change the way that content is delivered or transmitted between humans. And it's also something that every person on the planet experiences education in some form. So it's seen as a huge market. It's seen as something that is content driven and anything that's large market that has content, I think that people think that, that this type of technology can disrupt,

Speaker 2:

Right? So the , the the , the person who, you know, fixes my toilet or runs my electricity or whatever, like right . It's, it's , that's not a content delivery kind of field. We aren't thinking about applications there quite as much. Um, education is a lot of things obviously, but one thing it does do is try to reproduce ideas from one generation to the next often through what feels like content delivery. Yes . There's some like, I'm, I'm gonna say some things and hope you learn them. So can you just go a little bit, like paint a little more of a picture would you about like what things like chat G p t, like what these, these gen AI model , like what does it look like? What does content delivery look like when it runs through one of these new tools that has people thinking, ooh , content delivery and education, we should try that here.

Speaker 1:

So there's lots of different ways that this content gets transmitted to students or between students. And there is the classroom, there is group work, there's just all different pedagogical approaches to, to teaching and learning. The tech sector has been very, I would say almost obsessed in some ways with this concept of personalizing learning. You know, this belief that this one size fits all education is not good for kids or, you know, can be improved through personalization. And you, you saw that kind of pendulum swing in early two thousands where there was, you know, some of these classrooms looked like call centers where you had kids in cubicles Yes . That were learning online by themselves. And I think that this latest technology people are excited about in some ways because you can improve that personalized process of learning where, you know, in a classroom a teacher sometimes is gonna have individual learning time, they're going to do one-on-one teaching, there's tutoring that happens and there's this belief that chat, G P T and other forms of generative AI can mimic the , uh, skills of the teacher in a lot of ways and transmit that knowledge maybe even, you know, better and , and more precisely than, than a teacher could. So I dunno if listeners have heard have used Conmigo or some of the other AI tutors that are out there now, but they're getting quite good and impressive in a lot of ways. But I think that's one of the, one of the ways that the tech sector is very excited about this is that, hey, this can really personalize learning in a way that is automated. It doesn't require much work from the teacher and is can kind of target each student's zone proximal development mm-hmm. <affirmative> very precisely.

Speaker 2:

I think that con uh , conmigo, I , I liked a lot how it, it felt so oriented around my assets as a learner when I was playing with it in ways that previous tools have not Yes. Where previous tools would be like, Hey, you got this wrong. Do you want to watch me do it for you? And then you can do a different one. Um, that , that sort of thing. Conmigo like I would get it wrong unin intentionally, I should just add for the listeners' sake here , um, <laugh> . And it would tell me like, oh, what , what you might have been thinking was this. Which , um, to me felt much more like , uh, uh, a knowledgeable human instructor was pretty interesting to me. Um, I guess I , I'm wondering then you've been on record with a , a really , uh, persuasive essay . I thought that we'll put in the show notes that AI may disrupt teaching but not replace teachers. And so I could you ref reflect a bit for us on where you see like the power of AI and the power of teachers, like where the power of AI stops? Yeah . Like what, what is the difference there between uh , the best AI generated teacher we could imagine here and what a human teacher does?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. I should start by saying that ai, the , the pace at which AI is evolving and improving is , is wild. Like, and nothing I've seen before. Like it's, it's really improving rapidly. Like this weekend I was at the Berkeley AI hackathon and it was 1500 hackers from around the US and I, I think that almost 25% of them were working on education products, education tools. And it was just remarkable some of the things I saw. So I think it's very exciting first , just that we'll start there, that the pace of change and the evolution is happening at such a rapid clip that it's, it's hard to say where things are gonna be in in five years. But that said , um, you know, I, I'm a believer that learning is inherently social and that there are these sort of biological realities of us as human beings that that technology really isn't gonna change. And that things about us that really enhance the quality of our communication and our ability to teach. And so there's obvious things like body language and tone and eye gaze, and then there's other less obvious things like the kind of cadence and and rhythm of a conversation and language that can be lost in computer driven interaction. And so I worry sometimes that all of this excitement and this innovation in this building, in this space sometimes disregards the things about us that make us uniquely human. And we know that learning and, you know, the teaching component here is, is it's a , there's a social piece to it. And you know, the piece I wrote really was, it wasn't a warning, but it was, it was more of a, a message that, hey, let's not forget that, that we are human and there's parts of us as human beings that we need to integrate into this process as we think about these AI tools. And so I al I also really think about who's creating these tools mm-hmm . <affirmative> and are they hiring the people that are specialists and, and with an understanding of developmental stages of life and how vulnerable, you know, teenagers are. And, and as we go through different stages and making sure that there's technology is responsive to that, that development.

Speaker 2:

You outlined a bunch of researching your piece , um, illustrating the importance of social engagement and social processes on learning, which I found really persuasive. And I don't want to like generalize much about the kinds of people that are building these tools, but I do wonder sometimes if they are representative of students more broadly , uh, you know, like yeah . The , the , the pe some of the engineers that I know who are extremely talented, I think that they had less of an interest, some of them not all, but some of them in some of the social processes of learning. In many cases they were far smarter than their classmates felt. Limited by classmates Yes . Smarter than their teachers, et cetera . And I , I do wonder what that does to the ecosystem of tools that is emerging and , and whether it'll have an actual impact on the majority of students here.

Speaker 1:

Absolutely. Why it's so important for these builders to create diverse teams and to bring in people that are not like them and people with different backgrounds and specializations. Yeah. It's something that's very important to me and get

Speaker 2:

Into a classroom. I mean, it's , it's not the easiest thing, but it's not the hardest thing. And I just find, like, part of my work right now amplify is to like, I have swivels out there in the world with six classes piping in video all the time. Cause we have a huge company with people who , uh, are doing important work , uh, in education and have not themselves been classroom teachers. Yes . Which is not a prerequisite for doing I important and good work, but I'm just finding that dropping in a two minute clip of great teaching from Amanda Rou in Chicago public schools or Jens Mendy in San Diego just helps to expand people's horizons for like, oh, like this chat bot that I am building to approximate teacher interaction from the front of the room. Right . Like, does not account for the ways that the teacher like stands there for a longer second than, than natural and like raises an eyebrow and the kid like auto corrects their response. Uh , it just, it's tough. I , I don't know , I don't know . I'm curious how you, how do you, you mentioned two days a week you are, you know, kind of doing business development for your portfolio companies. Like are there ways that you help them understand like, ah , that's not really how this works?

Speaker 1:

Yeah. This, this is a , a pet peeve of mine because I don't understand why in sectors outside of education why there is a focus on the customers and that customer experience. And, you know, Intuit, for example, their team, they're encouraged to go in the homes of their software users and to watch them use it. And, and they have these kind of, this process called customer journeys. And I sometimes feel that in the ed tech sector education, they don't appreciate the, that experience of teachers and what's going on in the classroom. And I, I, it's, it's strange, very few companies in the sector are prioritizing that and getting into the classroom and really elevate the work of the teacher and see it as highly technical and challenging. And in our role at Reach, we really encourage that, push that at the board level and really try to get them to set goals around that and to inculcate their company with those types of values where they are as focused on the customer, which is often the teacher as , uh, as other companies are in other sectors.

Speaker 2:

That's great to hear. Yeah, certainly like not knowing your customer in education has not been like an impediment to a successful company . Like there's companies that have done like lousy why we consider lousy work that manage to be successful. Um, but I'm looking at this just huge space that you're seeing emerging around and education. I just feel a sense of almost like resignation where I'm not like, I don't feel like I need to throw myself on the tracks to like stop some of these efforts. They're just, they're not gonna be successful. Exactly . Like, they don't take, they don't account for the ecology of a classroom. And I'm just like, well, I mean, you know, take Jennifer Jennifer's advice or don't, you know, but it's not gonna work otherwise. Yeah . So I , I would love to know like, what are you , what are you excited about in terms of, you know, ai, you've mentioned like what you think AI won't replace about teachers, a lot of the social interaction for instance. Um, what are some applications that you see as e exciting from perhaps companies that you've invested in?

Speaker 1:

So I, I do think that we have been on this, this journey for many decades of specialization of the teacher's role. We used to call it the, the milk money problem where, you know, when teachers were, were teaching 50 years ago, they, they sort of did an entire range of, they still do, but they were collecting the milk money, they were doing everything that you can imagine in the classroom, you know, soup to nuts. And now we have increasingly, it's very slowly happening, but specializing the job of the teacher while at the same time piling a lot of stuff on, on the teacher's plate too. So I, I think that some of these tools that's already happening clearly are starting to automate certain parts of the teacher's job. So we are seeing a lot of essay grading tools, a lot of writing, writing grading. And I think that in a few years and , and they're quite good. You know, I think that teachers will work in partnership with these tools to automate some of the, the grading. Um, we're seeing a lot in, for your listeners the math, like starting to see a lot of math has been behind English in terms of the grading because it's just more challenging cuz of the computational language. Uh, but that were , I , I saw a lot of those actually this weekend and starting to see more and more products in that space that are really doing a good job of using computer vision to parse the math equations and not just tell them the right answer, but sort of do what Conmigo is doing, where they're pulling apart, oh, this is where you went wrong in this problem. This is perhaps why, and this is how you can consider these different solutions. So I, I think that a lot of the tools that I'm seeing now are , uh, addressing different parts of the, the teaching planning process. So like lesson planning takes eight to nine hours per week for teachers. I think that we're gonna have a lot of tools that are going to be supporting the planning process and making that easier for teachers. So that's the part that I'm, I'm very focused on right now.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, that's great. I I like , I like the idea of the , the human in the loop as they call it, where the these Yeah . You know, these tools will offer some suggestions and the teacher does that last mile of like passing it along through , um, or the , the AI isn't , uh, directly interfacing with the student just always feels a little bit better to me. Yes . Like I'll , I'll, I'll do make you a lesson plan and you can decide if this looks right and makes some modifications for your context. Um, that sounds great. And yeah, I love the , I like as a positive outcome here. I really dig the focus on like what is the unique value that a teacher offers. Yes . Yes . I guess I , I worry that the folks that are building at hackathons actually don't know, like they see the value that and that technology can offer and they feel very confident there, but don't actually, because perhaps they haven't had a , as much of a need for it or haven't experienced it directly, don't know what the value that a teacher offers to so many students in this world. Um, the question I'd love to follow up with here, Jennifer, is like, out of these companies that come to you and say, Hey, we've got the thing and we just need a little bit of money and we got the thing. Um, like what has, what kinds of pitches have like not been exciting to you, given like your perspective on the value a teacher brings and what a classroom is like, what kinds of ideas are you like , uh, I don't know about that <laugh>

Speaker 1:

To , to your earlier point about the unique value of a teacher. I do think that, that one of the, the unique values of a teacher that really hasn't shown up that much in a lot of the products I've looked at is the pedagogical content knowledge. And that's a term that, that most investors, most people don't understand, teachers do. But that's a very unique set of knowledge. It's a very unique skill set . And incredible teachers are highly skilled in how to teach a certain set of students at a certain level of understanding a new concept. And if investors would just understand that what even P C K is and how it's, how it's this unique set that's developed over time and how we are trained in it, like, I really do think that that would, would improve a lot of the tools and, and materials out there. So that's, that's something that I'm hoping that AI can free up teachers too , to focus more on and to, to really think about that in their lesson planning. But stuff that's not interesting , um, I'm seeing so many AI tutors that I , so not to say I'm not interested in AI tutors. Okay. I'm, I'm eyes wide open looking for great ones, but I, I just like this kind of like this chat body thing with these AI teachers. Um, there will be a use case for them and they will become ubiquitous. No question. I'm just, I'm just not , uh, super excited about that as the use case because I see the ways in which we are going to push forward education and knowledge and, you know, human progress is going to come through social learning. And I, I keep coming back to that because I think it's so powerful and teachers understand that the unit of the classroom is being such a powerful , uh, unit there to be teaching within for lots of different reasons. Collaboration, this kinda shared understanding for like the sort of microcosm of what we want, you know, the ideal society to look like, like I know I'm getting lofty here, but preach

Speaker 2:

It,

Speaker 1:

<laugh>, these are things that, that like teachers uniquely understand can be so powerful. And so I'm looking for tools for teachers and, and products that can enhance that social experience, social learning experience. And, you know, we've certainly made progress over, over the last decades and I think, you know, we, we continue to measure kind of human wellbeing, how ha it has increased over time. And our, our, I think a lot about circles of empathy and how we care for one another as fellow humans and how technology can improve that experience. And you know, I wrote about this in my, in my piece that I, that I published, but thinking about one of the first technologies being the Gutenberg press and how that allowed people to have an empathy for people outside of their villages. And, and I think that some of the new technologies can really increase empathy and can enhance this, this social learning piece.

Speaker 2:

Yeah, I love that. And I appreciate the word on on the virtual tutors slash chatbots. They're like interesting. Um, it feels like they might become just like a, a commodity almost. Exactly. I don't know , like exactly like in my thinking I've tried to imagine for myself like what if they're perfect? Yes . Like, like right now they kind of do some weird hallucinations, but let's just like, as you said, the developments are just so fast, let's just assume that they're perfect. Yeah . Like the best tutor you could want available via a chat interface. And I asked myself, when would a student want to interact with that chat interface in the classes that I'm watching where students feel engaged and socially connected and are learning. And I just, I have a hard time imagining a student wanting to say, hold , I'm gonna check outta this conversation we're having and check it over here with my chatbot and ask a question and then come back to you. It's just the , it doesn't to me Yeah . Resonate a lot with the classes . It could be part personal preference, the classes that I love to be in or observe, for instance. Yeah . Um , one last question then, like, so we have listeners who have never, you know, encountered open AI chat , G B T, any of these tools who might be for the first time kind of hearing about these things. Like, I, I dunno , I have a brother-in-law in Silicon Valley who is a special educator and he is like, no one's talking about this. No one's talking about this. So if you were to invite someone to experience what feels to you us magical about these tools? Yeah. They go to one of these tools that's free chat, G P t I don't know what, and they type a thing in and they're like, oh wow. That's, that is kind of magical. Like, yeah . Do you have an invitation to our listeners for like what they might try to just like get their , get their hair blown back a little bit? Well,

Speaker 1:

Yeah , it's a , it's a good , really good point that, but I can, as to your brother-in-law, your brother-in-law's, students are probably using AI and looking at the data, AI is now I think the number two most widely used tool globally for students already. It's the fastest growing like zero to the number two I've ever seen before. So students are already using this tool. It's not just Silicon Valley kids, it's kids all over the, the world. And without any technology is like the first time you use it, it can be like this magical experience. I remember, you know, the first time I, now this is gonna date me again too, but like, I remember I was worried about putting my credit card online the first time I made an online purchase. Like that was a huge deal. Or the first time I used an Uber. So I would encourage to use, what I have used it recently for is for like sightseeing or visiting a place. Like if I'm going to Yosemite, like what are the top, if I'm this type of visitor, I like hiking, you know, you describe yourself and then you ask for what should you do in 24 hours or something like that. So a lot of people are using it for travel. And then when teaching, I am surprised at like, you can ask for socra, like give me this lesson, teach it to me in using a Socratic method. And I'm surprised at how good the results are. I'm sure your , your listeners will find a lot of problems with them <laugh> with people that really understand it well. But just experimenting with these tools, it's, it's delightful in some ways. Have you, have you used it?

Speaker 2:

Yes. I, yeah, I type I, I came in as a skeptic and I was like, I'm gonna type some stuff in and I'm gonna hate what happens and I didn't hate it <laugh> . And uh, you know, like for , for for instance, like what's an engaging way to start a lesson on topic? Yes . X, y or z I was pretty, I was pretty, like I would prefer as a teacher , uh, as a curriculum developer, I have some conflict of interest here, but I would prefer to have an engaging and coherent experience for students across a year and not have to do that every day . I'll say that with some conflict. Yeah . But if I am a teacher who has no curriculum and is forced to make it up on the fly, what came out would be, was definitely better than what my gut would've been as a year one teacher, like far and away , like more interesting to , to students. Oh , interesting. So that was , uh, pretty cool. Well, thank you so much for joining us. Uh , I know you're busy and it's been , uh, extremely interesting to chat with you. And I'm always very grateful to know that someone , uh, like you, who knows what the term pedagogical content knowledge means and is, is someone who's influencing the, the direction of the ed tech , our teachers and the students experience. So thanks for joining us .

Speaker 1:

Oh , thank you Dan. Always a pleasure to talk with you.

Speaker 2:

Well, thank you all so much for listening to my conversation with Jennifer, Carolyn , co-founder and partner at Reach Capital. We'll have a link in the show notes to her piece, what AI will Disrupt but Never Replace. I'd love to know what about this vision of the future sounds exciting, sounds scary. I definitely hope you folks felt from both Jennifer and me that your perspectives, your expertise is something that is sorely lacking in so many conversations about technology and the future and , uh, to the, to the peril of all these folks who are, you know, suggesting new products. So , um, your work and perspective is so valued by all of us. We'd love it if you made sure you were subscribed to Math Teacher Lounge, wherever you get podcasts. That way you can get the next episode in our summer series looking at the intersection of AI in math. If you've got comments or questions about ai, let us know in our Facebook discussion group, math teacher Lounge community, or on Twitter at mtl, show what resonated, what questions do you have. And we'd also love it if you rated us and left us a review wherever you find podcasts that will help more people find this podcast. And my own mother reads my reviews and is so excited to see good ones. So make ma happy. Thanks again for listening folks. Take care.

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Bethany Lockhart Johnson

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Dan Meyer

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