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Math Teacher Lounge
Math Teacher Lounge is a biweekly podcast created specifically for K–12 math educators. In each episode co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson (@lockhartedu) and Dan Meyer (@ddmeyer)dive deep, with guests, into the math and educational topics you care about. Interact with us on Twitter (@mtlshow) or join our Facebook group (facebook.com/groups/mathteacherlounge) for more content.
Math Teacher Lounge
S5-04: Coaching tips for managing math anxiety in teachers
So far this season, we’ve investigated math anxiety in students and its causes with passionate researchers and curriculum experts, including Sesame Workshop! Now we hear from Dr. Heidi Sabnani, consultant, coach, and co-host of Math 4 All, as she gives us research-based tips for teachers who are facing math anxiety themselves! Listen as we discuss Heidi’s own math anxiety and journey through math, the effects teacher math anxiety can have on instruction, and practices educators can implement right away for overcoming math anxiety.
Listen today and don’t forget to grab your MTL study guide to track your learning and make the most of this episode!
Coaching is the opportunity to provide that just in time kind of professional development for teachers if we go at it in a slightly different way.
Speaker 2:Hey folks, welcome back to Matthew Future Lounge. I'm your host, Dan Meyer.
Speaker 3:And I'm Bethany Lockhart Johnson.
Speaker 2:Bethany, how are you doing and how are you feeling about our current trajectory through this exploration of math anxiety?
Speaker 3:Dan, I gotta tell you, I, let me make it about me for a second. <laugh>, go do it. Only I had, only, I had known that so many other people experienced math, anxiety, and I wasn't the only one. I I , I mean, I've said it before, but just, you know, I hope that this series so far is helping to reframe math anxiety for folks who maybe , like, have a narrow definition of it and I guess expand, reframe. And also like for those folks who are working with students who have math anxiety or who they themselves have experienced math anxiety, like, I hope they've found some tools, some resources, right? Like Yes, yes . And what about you? How are you feeling?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I , um, I hope this has been, you know, cathartic for all of our listeners who have experienced math anxiety and not re-traumatizing that there are lots of people who feel this way about math in particular, and that there are, it's , it's so well experienced, so broadly experienced that people have decided to study it a whole bunch, which is great. And now we're moving into our kind of solutioning, you know, in, in my relationships, I'm sometimes told that I rush too quickly, two solutions before trying to understand what's going on. So I've loved our episodes that have been about what is going on. And now , uh, with Dr. Trulio last episode and our, our guest today, we're moving more into some solutions, which I'm excited about.
Speaker 3:I don't know, Dan, I think if we, you know, next time I see you, I , I'm gonna bring a list of some concerns or worries I have, and I would love if you just get right to the solution. I'm actually okay with that, so ,
Speaker 2:All right . Good to know. Good to know. I'll say I am coming off of a day where I'm, I'm feeling some, I was feeling some teacher anxiety today because I taught, I taught really real students, so just let you know where I'm coming from here. Like, I taught , um, some seventh grade students at Monte Middle here in Oakland Unified School District taught em a lesson outta the Desmos curriculum. And it was one of those lessons that like, where some, some thorny stuff comes up. I'm talking students who are wrong for smart reasons, who are right for the wrong reasons, and their minds are working so hard trying to figure out inequalities. And I'm like trying to just step into that process as an educator with some curriculum and help shape those ideas. But it's just , uh, you know, I don't know , you want it to be as easy as like, let me just show you how it's done a few times and now you got it. But whew , some of these ideas, they take a long time to form up and , um, they're, they're really easily reshaped by lots of stuff going on. So that's where , that's where I'm at anxiety wise right now. The teacher anxiety stuff,
Speaker 3:I think there's probably plenty of teachers who do kind of just say, this is how you do it. And so, from what I have seen of your teaching and what I know of the Desmos curriculum, it , it is such an opportunity to think hard about the things that we are assuming about our students, assuming about what we know about the math itself. And yeah, that requires some, like, thought.
Speaker 2:Yeah, for sure. Um, I came in ready, like, it's the, when you do , when you multiply both sides of an inequality by a negative, this sign flips around. And I could just say that to kids and say, Hey, remember that? Write that down. And a lot of them would do it really well. Uh, you know, it provided the assessment problems looked like ones we've gone over in class, and they're also learning, in addition to that math, they're learning that math is a giant sack of tricks they gotta memorize, right? So there's just these pros and cons, and at the end of the, at the end of the one period I'm gonna teach this week, I was like, well , uh, your teacher's gonna go over that tomorrow , uh, when they're with you , um, instead of me. So it felt, it felt a bit like I copped out on that one. And I'm , I'm just like, I'm in in my feelings about that right now, and I'm gonna try to come on down here and, and be present in the math anxiety world.
Speaker 3:I appreciate you sharing that, Dan. And I think you know, it, I, I have a feeling that you could write a pretty catchy rhyme to allow the students to flip and, you know, multiply by negative. And can you feel it? You picking up that beat ? Ooh , yeah . A
Speaker 2:Nice little beat Uhhuh
Speaker 3:<affirmative> . Yeah . You know, you could, you could come up with something pretty clever, and yet you did not lean on your wordsmithing skills, you said, no, let us dive in. So what are you gonna do with this lesson, by the way? What, what happens now? You , you popped in for one period, and then what , what happens?
Speaker 2:Yeah. So this is gonna be a blast. I hope you folks tune in. Um, we're gonna actually release the footage of me teaching this lesson live. Um, you know, it'll be replayed live. And on top of that, a couple of my favorite , uh, teacher coaches and just smart people about teaching are going to be giving commentary. They are gonna be giving the director's commentary, the sports announcers commentary on what they're seeing . I beg for their generosity and their commentary. Um, but I think it'll be a lot of fun. I've never seen anything like this before . A commentary track on top of a teaching lesson , um, in this way. So I'm just gonna gonna be excited to see what , what they noticed that I didn't, what they might have done, the thoughts they might have. Maybe I'll , maybe I'll do a post-game interview, Ooh , you know, Ooh , yes. With that , with my , you know , my towel around my neck, <laugh> looking all sweaty,
Speaker 3:Ready, set, grow ,
Speaker 2:Like, yep . We gave it all out there. You know, just a real team effort. Uh , you know, that kind of thing. We'll see how that goes.
Speaker 3:I actually love that idea. I love that it's not just this one random lesson that just kind of floats out there, and it's about like, you, like, walk away with whatever feelings you have, but, and the students obviously walk away with, but that this is gonna like, help other educators.
Speaker 2:Yeah. Yeah. We'll , we'll multiply my anxiety and make it more people's anxiety. Uh , we'll see how that goes. So stay tuned on the math teacher lounge feed for that. All right .
Speaker 3:All right . And speaking of anxiety, Dan Meyer , we gotta get to today's show. You know, last time we had some amazing strategies for helping students from Dr. Trulio from Sesame Workshop. I gotta tell you, I sent that episode to like so many of my friends, like, listen to these ideas and, you know, have had some interesting follow up conversations. And we would love to hear what you think about this season so far at MTL show on Twitter or in our Facebook group Math Teacher Lounge. So today we're gonna focus on strategies for supporting teachers.
Speaker 2:Yes. Which is why we're so excited to bring to you folks Heidi Siani , who we've had, you know , uh, researchers. We've had Sesame Workshops , um, and Heidi Siani is, has been a classroom teacher. She's teacher consultant , uh, new newly minted doctoral degree holder. We're so pumped to bring to you folks. Heidi Zani .
Speaker 3:Dr . Zani , thank you for being here. Can we call you Dr . Heidi ? What would you ,
Speaker 1:You can just call me Heidi. Yeah, Heidi is good.
Speaker 3:Right on . Yes . Okay. Heidi, thank you for joining us in the Lounge. We're so excited to talk with you.
Speaker 1:I am super honored to be here. It's really exciting and I just really appreciate the opportunity. I
Speaker 3:Will say I don't have a PhD, although the two people I'm talking with right now, both do, and you're both like holding up your degrees as we speak and saying, you know, but I imagine that if I did, I'd wanna throw that doctor in more frequently, so.
Speaker 1:Well,
Speaker 3:You sneak in a doctor, Heidi, it's only out of respect.
Speaker 1:Okay. I appreciate it.
Speaker 3:Dan makes me call him Dr . Meyer all the time.
Speaker 2:You don't call me Dr . Dan or Dr . Meyer ever. So I will , this res this respect only goes towards Dr. Heidi, it seems,
Speaker 3:But yeah .
Speaker 2:We'll , we'll take that off the air.
Speaker 3:Well, we are going to delve into your research on math anxiety soon, because I actually like, speaking of becoming a doctor, new doctor, I have some questions. We have questions about your research, but on a personal level, like I really appreciated the way that you share that you yourself experienced math anxiety as a student. Mm-hmm. <affirmative>. So I'm wondering if you could tell us a bit about your own math anxiety, like your, your, your <laugh> your journey through math.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so much like the people in the research that I did, and with the research that I read by others, many of us can tie the beginnings or like the evil villain origin story of math , anxiety to a particular event or series of events. And my series of events started the big blow up , I guess , um, in fourth grade. And I had had some struggles in school that's , um, I have mild dyslexia and DYS ula. And so I had always been in the like, special group of kids who got some extra attention, <laugh> from the teacher, or from an aide or whoever happened to be in the room. Um , but in fourth grade at that time, they taught multiplication and division facts in fourth grade, many, many moons ago. And I struggled greatly with just understanding what was happening and why we were moving so quickly. And , um, my teacher was probably not the best person to be entrusted with my learning at the time. Like her, her style may have been , um, okay for others, but it was obvious that she felt like it kind of wasting her time with some people in the classroom. And I, I happened to be one of those people. And you said that
Speaker 3:Really diplomatically though, <laugh> , you're like,
Speaker 1:Well, you know, it's, you look back at things from the perspective of many years and having made lots of mistakes myself in the classroom as a teacher. Like, I, I try to give some grace to things that happened , um, and how you remember them. Yeah . Like , yeah, that's, that's, you know, my story, but maybe she had a different one, right? Yeah.
Speaker 3:But fourth grade Heidi was still, you know, still experiencing that. Yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Fourth grade, Heidi didn't like being in the dumb group and didn't like being told that she would probably not graduate from high school. So that was kind of the general environment. Um, and I got further and further behind in math. The dyslexia was less and less of an issue the older I got because I had great comprehension. And so I could figure out the fluency thing just by the pattern of language, because mind is mild in comparison to so many who, who struggle with that. Um , but math was not, was not working in that same way. And I got more and more behind and to the point where I was having to stay in every day at recess. And , um, I had had it after like a month. Like, I'm not staying in at recess anymore to do this math that I don't understand by myself, like not doing it. So I, which
Speaker 3:By the way, if there's one way to like,
Speaker 1:Make you hate it, <laugh>
Speaker 3:Like , engender like to endear you to a subject. It could it be let's have you stay in at recess,
Speaker 1:Right? And so one day I just like stormed out of the classroom, I was like , I'm not, I'm not coming. I'm not staying, I'm not doing this anymore. I'm, I'm done. And , um, I can remember like her standing up at the top of the hill screaming at me to come back and I was like, no way. Not doing it done with this. I went to a parochial school though, and um , my dad is a pastor. So that whole little incident blew up in the greater community in a way that I didn't really anticipate as a fourth grader. And my parents had no idea that this was going on. And so they were like shocked and dismayed that they're like, up until that point, you know, oldest child rule follower had done this. But then even more upset when they found out what was happening with my math understanding or lack thereof. And they did what they knew best at the time. So my mom was a great memorizer. She has a brain like an elephant. And my dad grew up in the British system in India and Singapore, and it was at that time very much based on memorization. And so they were like, we are gonna just work really hard. We're gonna buckle down and like do this thing <laugh>. And so that's what we did, and that's where all of it began. It wa it was not, it was just about like, we're gonna learn the facts. We're not gonna ask questions, we're not gonna think about it because it's just the rules. And if you can figure out the rules or the system or what the, what the teacher wants and mimic what the teacher is doing, then you'll be successful. And it was really successful for me, like once I figured that out all the way through. My whole goal in high school when I took high school math, was to take enough math courses with a high enough GPA that when I got my BA in college, that I would never have to take math again. And I succeeded in that and got an English degree and a master's in World Lit. And I was like in no way doing math ever again.
Speaker 3:But little did you know that future you was going to be researching math anxiety. How did you wind up researching it then? How did you wind up researching math anxiety?
Speaker 1:So I took a job in school improvement when I was working in Ohio , um, after a number of years teaching high school English in southern California and Guatemala and Michigan all over the place. And I took a job in school improvement with a coco consultant who was gonna be doing the math. And , and I was gonna be doing the literacy end , and we were just gonna go in and make , I was gonna make kids love reading , and she was gonna make kids love math, and it was gonna be so fun. And then she decided she didn't like working with adults and they couldn't find anyone else. And my boss said, so you're just gonna do both for the rest of the year. After that year, I said, if I, I got requested to go back and, and do this again. I said, well, if I'm gonna do this, I'm going to go back and reteach myself the math in ways that I wish that fourth grade Heidi had learned it and fourth grade and up Heidi had learned it. And so that was like the, the beginning of the switch. And so now equal amounts of time in my career have been spent in both. But when I started, when I continued working, when I left the classroom to continue working with teachers, and when I transitioned more into an elementary setting, I began to notice the same behaviors that I had in high school of avoiding math and avoiding teaching math were happening in the classrooms that I was supporting. And so I would have teachers come and say, oh, can we talk about this literacy thing? And even if it was like a math meeting or we were supposed to split the time evenly, and oh, for some reason the literacy time talk would just like move over <laugh>. And then there was no time to talk about math at the end. And Oh, that's just too bad. Like, we're just gonna move on to this next thing. Funny how that happens , right? Yeah. <laugh> and, you know, noticing teachers' behaviors around going to and or avoiding math professional development that I was giving, you know, or getting sick or like having to leave the room for a long period of time. And so I began to notice these behaviors. And initially I thought I wanted to look at math anxiety in children, which is like one branch of, of the research that I started with. But as I got into things more, the people that I have the most influence in are adults right now. Right. And so as I started looking at the research that had already been done, I feel like we do a really nice job of admiring the problem of math anxiety, and we do less in the what to do about phase. And so I was like, well, if I'm going to continue to be in this career and in this profession, then I need to be doing something in the space of what are we gonna do about it? And so that's how I switched to looking at what do we do to help teachers, particularly elementary school teachers, because that's the area of greatest need based on previous research that we could at least do something to help.
Speaker 2:Yeah. It's like a , a , a previous guest mentioned , uh, that a lot of research is like better understood as me search , uh, especially in , in this kind of yeah . Arena where we're going back in to try to understand what it was that happened for us mm-hmm. <affirmative> and how to prevent it for future generations. Uh, I , and I have nothing but respect for that motivation right there. So in your point as well put that it is very possible to spend a ton of time examining math anxiety from every angle. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> every facet, you know, put it up there on a mounted board and admire it . And that's, there's a lot of value there, but I appreciate that you're moving into, so, so now what? Yep . And so I'd love if you , if you'd share with us and our listeners , um, the like broad details of your study and what you ultimately found. Like any , if there are any large takeaways here, what were they?
Speaker 1:Yeah, so a couple of things to kind of just lay a little bit of the groundwork. One out of four teachers say that they have math anxiety. Those numbers increase rapidly the younger of the grades that the teachers teach. So if we think about pre-K to two, it's about 88% based on other people's research. So I was like, well that's, that's a lot of people <laugh>. And so , um, that's like the, the scope of the problem. And so I was thinking like, okay, what do we do in these moments? Because other researchers had said like, they're spending, when they don't like it, they're spending less time teaching math and avoiding it, or relying on methods that were done to us just out of fear of trying something different at many times. And so one thing that has become more prominent in math education since I transitioned 16 years ago into this, has been the role of coaches in school systems. And so one of the questions I wanted to think about was, what can coaches or math specialists who, who work with adults as well do to help the teachers that they work with? So that was kind of the lens that I was looking at. Like, let's think about the systems that we currently have in place. Is there something that we could be doing that would help teachers that wouldn't be so huge or so monumental that with little shifts in our own behavior as coaches or professional development providers that we could make that would make a difference? So that being said, this was a qualitative study, so small group of people in very intense settings. So I kind of always wanna preface that because in academic world, you know, there's <laugh>, there's all sorts of thoughts about that. Um, so I had asked teachers from districts that I work with who kind of self-identified as having math anxiety if they would be interested in the study. So this is what we're thinking of, this is what it would look like and the scope of the support they would have.
Speaker 3:So basically you were, you're tracking these four teachers who self-identified as math anxious , and were you serving as their coach and kind of seeing what was working?
Speaker 1:I was serving as their coach. Yeah. I was serving, yeah. As their coach during that time period. And some fairly recent research that had been done was in the idea of can we do some reflective conversations or reflective writing around where your math anxiety started and how that makes you feel both as a teacher of mathematics now because you are teaching math and how that affects your identity as a mathematician. And so that was the , the first starting point. And that was a really critical moment that I'm glad that I had like kind of stumbled across the research on, because it turned out that having someone hear and acknowledge that what happened to them was both wrong and inappropriate in many cases, and in a couple instances, like was traumatic and also abusive, that that mattered, that it was okay to feel anger and hurt and frustration based on what happened to you in the past. And then have that moment to reflect on, okay, so what do you want the classroom environment that you're building as a teacher to feel like for your students? So it was turning that moment of how they felt to thinking about then what kind of environment do we wanna make within the math classroom and what steps can we take to ensure that happens? So that was like step one is just thinking about what that looks like. What kind of math identities then do you want to create for your students? Because all of the teachers were very concerned with not continuing that, the cyclical nature that often happens with math anxiety from teacher to student and back again. Well,
Speaker 3:And even that validation, right? Like, how many of them hadn't even had, like you said, had that va we had another when in our first episode, Dr. Herra Ramirez talked about that validation and how key
Speaker 1:Yeah, that was the first thing, the next step of it, which very different from what I often do. I don't generally go in and model for teachers, just me being, taking over your classroom. I really like to co-plan with teachers and co-teach with teachers and have, have it not feel like they're losing control over what's happening in that moment. Um, and that's generally the way that I go in when I'm doing like professional development in, in a classroom, right? Like I'm working with the teacher and we're planning, we're like, we're a team, we're doing this together. But in these four cases, these teachers were very, very resistant to co-teaching. Um, and so I said, okay, well let's, let's throw everything out. Let's try whatever it happens to be. So the modeling aspect turned out to be really important in part when three, three outta the four cases, because they were like, oh, I can do that. <laugh> like, yeah, I know you can. Like, it was that having a moment to sit back and, and see someone else doing it, which is harder to do when you're co-teaching, right? It's harder to be reflective in the moment when you're still thinking about the teaching choices you're making because you're both co-teaching, right?
Speaker 3:Or sometimes you see, like in co-teaching, it falls into like one teach, one manage , you know, or something like that. Yes. And which I have definitely fallen into that. Um, but you , the by modeling it was like almost, I don't know, it feels like you're kind of holding their hand, like, I'll show you. And not that it has to exactly look like that, right? But mm-hmm. <affirmative>, you're, you found if a coach is coming in and the teacher gets to sit back and basically watch their students learn, they're probably getting mm-hmm . <affirmative> a ton of information about their students and they're really learning some teaching strategies for mathematics that they can then like dip their toe in. I think <laugh> is that, am I , am I kind of thinking of this? I'm trying to picture this and it feels like rich and like rife with like possibilities, <laugh> .
Speaker 1:Well, and it, it turned it from, I think sometimes when , when I go into a classroom, I learn so much from watching teachers and being able to sit and listen to students that you don't always have the luxury of when you're the teacher <laugh> , right? It's so, it's so much harder to be like, okay, like I'm gonna be watching what a kid does because I'm hoping someone uses this strategy so I can connect it to this other person's strategy so that we can take that apart and, and look at it and really have a media discussion around it. Those are all so many things that are happening in the moment as a teacher. You don't get to sit back and look at it from a researcher kind of lens or look , you know, like from the up above lens. And when I had these conversations with teachers, I was like, that's what I want you to do. I want you to like be able to sit back and look at all the things that are happening because then you begin to notice not only the moves that the teacher, in this case me who was teach modeling for them was doing, but also the student conversations. And it was , it was almost like having a case study within that moment where they got to like sit back and, and just experience versus thinking about all the decisions that they would make at the moment. So that was something that was really surprising to me.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I , I love the idea that they're seeing the pedagogical moves, but they're also experiencing perhaps a sense of math , uh, that's le that's de-stressed. You know, they are allowing themselves to sit next to, to students and feel as though they are a student in ways that if you're co-teaching, you are still like enmeshed in the gears of the whole lesson. I wonder if that's a part of this too. So I'm hearing from you that the interve that we're taking these teachers who have all admitted to some math anxiety and that one of the interventions or one of the findings was that modeling worked really well for, again, this this set of, of teachers mm-hmm . <affirmative> , but modeling, you modeling lessons that , um, highlighted mathematics that was less anxious, that that helped , uh, the teachers see that students were engaging in really productive unanxious ways, brave ways mm-hmm . <affirmative> . Um , were there other kinds of takeaways that you experienced there?
Speaker 1:Yeah. So in a like addition to that, we had to think about and, and start at like step one, one of the teachers that I worked with had done her student teaching with a teacher who had math anxiety and who never taught math. And so she entered the teaching, her teaching career, never having taught math before or seen it taught. And so in her situation, she had had one course in her teacher preparation program that was on fractions. That's
Speaker 3:Often the case, right? One math methods course we help , we have to get it all in in this semester, <laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yes. And so she came in and said, I, I feel like I have to start at the beginning. And so there was no question that was, that was inappropriate or that, you know, we weren't going to, to explore or think about. And so that was, I think the starting place with, with that particular teacher and then one other who was kind of in her same age range where we had to start thinking about, okay, how did you learn as a learner? What ways are you seeing your students learn as learners? And then let's focus on those first as the areas that you wanna explore in your teaching. And so a lot of that ended up being like much more visual and hands-on ways of exploring. And so those were some of the changes in like, I think a pedagogy that were the most significant is in, in a couple of cases, these are early elementary teachers who had had one experience with manipulatives in their whole teaching career up until that point. And so one teacher brought me a bucket of queens and arrows and said, these are in my room. I don't know what , I don't know what they are <laugh> . Like , are we building things with them? Are they blocks that are just small <laugh> ? Like what are they for? Yes. And so it , it <laugh> it was that idea of, okay, let's, let's explore all the different ways that we can use these and that we can think about how your students might learn best with this particular tool that you have in your room. So
Speaker 3:Hearing you talk about this research, which by the way, I know, I know you're like, for our listeners, it's all , uh, quick, like boil down your like years and hours of research and like synthesize it for us. We likes work , little tiny meat package. But really though, even those , I know there's so many layers to your research and your work with these teachers, but I wanna flag for our listeners that even the things that you have, you've identified for us, you were giving teachers space as coach, giving teachers space, and mm-hmm . <affirmative> validating their experience as a mathematician, as you know, as a young student, right? Like making space for that experience and validating Yeah. That was really lousy and your math anxiety is real. Like step one is already powerful. Mm-hmm. <affirmative> . And then you're creating space where they get to be in their classroom as a learner, right. And have a lesson modeled, and then you're creating more <laugh> space for them to learn and ask questions. And I have absolutely seen teachers like, you know, I don't know what to do with these and kind of shove aside mm-hmm . <affirmative> , the, the district provided tools or the curriculum provided tools. And so even those things, Heidi, Dr . Heidi <laugh> , you know, even if like, I , I don't know, I , for me, I am like listening to you and just holding those points in mind and feeling like that alone if a coach did even just that, like, I know there's so much more to it, but like, what a powerful opportunity for like reclaiming math as an educator, right? Mm-hmm . <affirmative> , like, that's, that's what I'm feeling.
Speaker 1:Well, and I was hoping that there wouldn't be, I mean, okay, well, it's a double-sided hope, right? If there was something like so novel and so fantastic that was so different from the things that we have already at our disposal, like that would've made a much better book or dissertation, <laugh>. But the reality is there are things that we already know work and we don't often take the time or, or are given the time to be able to explore those things, right? Um, so even as coaches, you have district initiatives or things like, this is what we're working on this year, and that's fantastic, right? Like we, we keep those things moving forward, but if we're thinking about coaching teachers with math anxiety, no teacher with math anxiety is going to be coming to nctm. Right? Right. Like, or the training or the either or the , or the training or like, right ? Like they're not, they're like, oh, PD day literacy, yes, please by, you know, it's, it's that piece of it. So when we have these moments, like the coaching is the opportunity to provide that just in time kind of professional development for teachers. If we go at it in a slightly different way, it's not, it does not have to be huge. It can be things like they feel that they're stronger in literacy. Well then let's explore some of the ideas around math, anxiety and math identity and examples of, of people who've overcome either those things or other barriers in their life. And how can those things help form not only your students' math identity, but your math identity. And it, it gives entry points in ways that you have access to if you're a person's coach.
Speaker 2:So in that sense, I'd love to know from you, like if you , if someone came to you at a , a coach's meeting ncsm and asked you, what is something I can do right now to support the teachers at my site and my district who, who are commonly experiencing math anxiety, what is something that you would offer them in that, that brief moment you had with that coach?
Speaker 1:So it is hearing their story first, that's the big one. And then can you, in your coaching, provide opportunities to slow down, we, we all have these pacing guides in some form or another that, that drive the things that are coming. Is there a way that you can set up meetings a month or more in advance of the content that those teachers are going to teach? Can we explore a month in advance that content and ways to teach it and understand it, right? There's the, the ways to teach it, but there's also like, what is this math and how do kids experience this math? What kind of experiences do we want to have ourselves as learners and then have as kids? If we can create cycles like that, that then don't feel so rushed, it's so hard when we're like, oh, we have a planning meeting and we're meeting with our coach, and you're teaching this lesson tomorrow, learn all this stuff about adding and subtracting on a number line. Go. It's so fast. And so if we had those opportunities to build in cycles where we could slow down that process, it would make a huge difference in the lives of so many teachers. And it's finding that time and the willingness, if you listen to teachers, they will work with you. Like if you validate what, what happens to them and acknowledge that sometimes that still happens to us. I mean, I still have experiences like that. Sometimes I'll walk into a classroom and I'm like, oh, I forgot how to do that. You know, like, I've not reached that far in my remaking of my own education. Yeah , it's okay . <laugh> . And so, and you think like, I don't wanna look like an idiot. I'm, I'm the math consultant who's here. Duh . All of those things still come up. Yeah. And stopping and saying like, okay, everybody, this is what's happening to me right now. <laugh> the vulnerability you have, you have to think about that. Even if you don't have experiences of math anxiety in your own life. Let's say you always rocked out in math and you're now a math specialist and you love it. You think it's the most spectacular things. There's some other element in your life where you face some anxiety. All of us do. So it's about thinking about, okay, like this is where I experience anxiety. Can I find that in my, the teachers that I work with? And then can my teachers find that in the students they work with, you know, the teachers as they begin to reflect on their own experiences, began noticing which students always went to the nurse during math time. Mm-hmm . <affirmative> always asked to go to the bathroom during math time, always had like, couldn't find a pencil or a PA or whatever it happened to be. And they began to be more aware of their students' behaviors as well, and could then say like, Hey, let's sit and talk about how you feel in math class. Like, I've been noticing that when it's time for math, like your stomach hurts. Can we talk about like why that might be? Because those teachers with math are more attuned often, right . To those students. Right . And so it just, the time factor, I guess is, is the
Speaker 3:<laugh> , you know, and I , the bottom line , I just wanna say like, it's so great to have you in the lounge because I think you're really bringing this, this perspective that we haven't talked about, which we are not expecting coaches to walk in and know it all. That's actually the exact opposite. It's like, you are allowed to be vulnerable. You are, we are not saying come quote unquote fix this. It's like, Hey, how can you facilitate and make space? And I feel like you have given us just like , uh, a taste of like how that might be possible. And you know, I, I think even if it's just a chance to like, for teachers to reflect on their own experience in math, even that would probably be kind of revolutionary for , and I don't say that word lightly for some PD spaces, especially if they have like another peer in their team that like, is like quote unquote a wiz or like , oh, I don't feel like I can be vulnerable in my math anxiety because this teacher seems to know it all. But you're creating space where it's like, Hey, we all have strengths. We all have areas where we could support each other. And I love that invitation for coaches. I love that invitation for teachers. And I , yeah. I'm just, I'm so glad we get like a snapshot of your research again. I know, I respect that. This is not the whole thing, but
Speaker 2:Can we find the , uh, you know , uh, is there a link to , uh, your dissertation in the show notes for those of us who , uh, peruse dissertations? Can we , uh, add something here? Think about , oh , I have no idea. Just think about it on ProQuest. Just think about it. Uh , but it's
Speaker 1:Somewhere on ProQuest. It did get some Right
Speaker 3:On. Is that a thing , Dan? Could I go like Google your dissertation?
Speaker 2:You definitely could. Yeah, for sure. It's, it's around mm-hmm . <affirmative> . Um, yeah, same way. Well , that's awesome. And it's, I think it's so helpful for those who write those enormous unwieldy essays to, you know, to distill it in different ways. I hope it's been, you know, we've enjoyed so much hearing you carve up , uh, a , a huge project into pieces that were, you know, really helpful for us to think about here in the lounge. Um, thank you so much for coming on and, and hanging out with us. Dr. S been a pleasure.
Speaker 1:Hey, I'm happy to do it anytime . Always the biggest joy in the work that I do is little changes in a positive direction. Mm , right on . That's, that's all that this is about. Right. Whether it's kids, whether it's teachers, whether it's administration, the work that we, we all do is so valuable and it is more and more difficult over time. And just giving ourselves a little bit of space to think about and acknowledge that I think is, is really important. So I, I appreciate you all making space as well, and, and thinking about this, this idea because <laugh> , because we're math people and we don't have math anxiety, right?
Speaker 3:<laugh> ,
Speaker 2:So people would assume <laugh>.
Speaker 1:Yeah .
Speaker 3:Thank you so much. You're welcome Back in the lounge. Anytime . Anytime . <laugh>, thanks so much for listening to our conversation with Dr. Heidi Savani , consultant and co-host of the show Math for All. I can't get enough about talking about math things ,
Speaker 2:Especially from people who are working with teachers so closely.
Speaker 3:Yes, totally. I loved that lens of, hey, look at what happens if we actually focus on the teacher's experience and help them kind of reclaim this comfort, this sense of identity relationship with math that's positive. How does that impact their teaching? It's, I loved talking about it, and I'm, I'm really interested in how that, that work continues to evolve. So thank you so much Dr. Siani , for your time. And you know, listeners, please keep in touch with us on our Facebook in our discussion group, math Teacher Lounge community, or you can find us on Twitter at MTL show.
Speaker 2:If you haven't already, please subscribe to Math Teacher Lounge, wherever you get podcasts. Also, if you like what you're hearing, please rate us and leave us a review. It will help more listeners find the show, and it just makes me and Bethany feel good about ourselves too. You can find more information on all of amplifies shows at our new podcast hub . Go to amplify.com/hub.
Speaker 3:You know, Dan , I also always like to say, I find most of my podcast through recommendations from other listeners, friends, folks. So if you, you know, if you like what you're hearing, share it with, share it in your teacher lounge, just like on break, just turn it up and just start vibing and having the conversation right there.
Speaker 2:Yep . Yep . Uh , take, take. I got a better idea. Take , um, the link to this podcast and then copy it and find the longest, the thread in your inbox with the most people on it. One of those ones that's like someone accidentally CC'd like 500 people. Everyone at your school press reply. All this is crucial. Not reply, but reply all, paste that link in, press send, watch what happens.
Speaker 3:Nothing but good
Speaker 2:Fortune will be yours, but
Speaker 3:Nothing but good things can happen when you send this to 500 people in the next 10 minutes. Next time on Math Teacher Lounge, we're gonna be joined by Dr. Marjorie Schaffer of St . Mary's College for a conversation about math, anxiety, and specifically Dan, how parents and caregivers, how their disposition influences the way their kiddos feel about math.
Speaker 4:I think the most important thing we know from literature right now is that high math , anxious parents, when they interact with their children, their children learn less math over the course of the school
Speaker 3:Year and get this, she's gonna talk to us about an app that just might be something worth , uh, you know, heading over to the app store for.
Speaker 2:I've used some apps, I have opinions, and I can't wait . We just share recommendations on apps with Dr. Schaffer .
Speaker 3:That's next time on Math Teacher Lounge. Thanks so much for listening.
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