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Math Teacher Lounge
Math Teacher Lounge is a biweekly podcast created specifically for K–12 math educators. In each episode co-hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson (@lockhartedu) and Dan Meyer (@ddmeyer)dive deep, with guests, into the math and educational topics you care about. Interact with us on Twitter (@mtlshow) or join our Facebook group (facebook.com/groups/mathteacherlounge) for more content.
Math Teacher Lounge
Winter Wrap-Up 01: Problem solving and facilitating classroom discussions
As we prep for an exciting new season of Math Teacher Lounge: The Podcast, hosts Bethany Lockhart Johnson and Dan Meyer are looking back at the amazing speakers and conversations from past episodes and sharing some of their favorites!
First up: A season 2 double feature of The Power of Problem-Solving with Fawn Nguyen and Facilitating Classroom Discussions with authors Christy Hermann Thompson and Kassia Omohundro Wedekind.
Fawn is a specialist on Amplify’s advanced math team, and is a former math teacher and math coach—so she knows her stuff! You'll hear about her five criteria for good problem-solving problems, and the power and importance of exposing all students to problem-solving.
Then, we'll move into Bethany and Dan's conversation with Christy and Kassia to learn how hands-down conversations allow students to become better listeners and the steps you can take to implement hands-down conversations in your classroom.
Hey folks. Welcome back to Math Teacher Lounge. My name is Dan
Speaker 2:Meyer. And I'm Bethany Lockhart Johnson. Hello, happy New Year. Hello, Dan Meyer,
Speaker 1:H n y Bethany, h n y to you and to all, all of the listeners out there in Math. Teacher Lounge. H n y is the abbreviation that I use sometimes.
Speaker 2:Oh, is that what that is? Is that, I wasn't sure what that was. If on my birthday you send me H b d no. Yeah, no. Unacceptable.
Speaker 1:I will<laugh> No, you want the full thing to demonstrate my care for your birthday? Exactly. Spell the whole thing out. I'm just trying to stay relevant. You know, I'm just trying to stay relevant and youthful. So I'm using the Abri<laugh>, uh, I'm,
Speaker 2:I'm the brev to,
Speaker 1:To the extent of even abbreviating the word abbreviation.<laugh>. So, um, any, any, uh, new Year's resolutions you wanna share with the listeners? Bethany? Um, I'll, while you think, I'll just share mine real quick here. Um, this is the, this is the, the year of the perfect wordle streak for yours, truly. Dan Meyer. Um, I'm going the full 365 watch, watch me do it, folks. I'm naming it here. Live on air, uh, recorded on air Perfect Wordle year. What you got for the listeners, Bethany?
Speaker 2:Let's see. It's raining very hard here in Southern California, and my newest resolution is to embrace nature. My child wants nothing more than to go and splash in all the puddles
Speaker 1:Nice.
Speaker 2:And be amongst the mud and what I'm gonna keep telling myself, and so far, so far, I've been doing pretty good with this Thrive Child Splash, squish, we can dry you off.<laugh>, you will not melt. So I want to keep finding opportunities. Like, for instance, my response is, it's pouring rain. Let's stay undercovers and let's read this book together. And his response is like, banging on the windows, like, please let me go outside so I myself have some rain boots. I'm going to go forth and splash with my child. So that, that's, hopefully you'll see me doing that a bit more. Love that. Ask me what I'm doing. I'm outside splashing in nature.
Speaker 1:I'm not, I don't wanna put words in your mouth, but I have felt a bit like parenting as a means for rounding out aspects of my own personality that I have felt are, or, or habits or hobbies that are lacking. Like I've never been real outdoorsy or into camping, but I don't want that to limit my own kids, you know, aspirations or interests. So let's, uh, let's do the thing that's not supernatural for me, for their, their own sake, which is kind of what I'm hearing a little bit from you, which that sounds exciting.
Speaker 2:Do you wanna go camping together? Like our families?
Speaker 1:Uh, let's take this one off the air. Um, I also love Something that's less, more relevant to, uh, a teacher's audience that you said that I think is super interesting, is how there's ways that we can make the jobs harder for ourselves that are optional. And like, what I hear from you is like, I'm, I'm just like, not gonna freak out. Like, we're getting wet, we're getting, we're getting soggy, and I'm just like, not gonna freak out. And I just think that that's a interesting to think about the things that we take on, you know, that's optional. Freaking out is optional sometimes, you know, and, uh, there's other, other areas I think, uh, for parenting or for teaching where it's like, oh, do I really need to choose this particular battle? And to, to, I don't know, reconsider that.
Speaker 2:And in that spirit, our whole Wordle episode that we talked about, you know, do you remember you talked about how beautiful wordle mistakes are and like how you keep learning from mistakes. I mean, not like you obviously want the final correct answer, but just, you know, when you get on a losing streak, Dan, I hope you'll continue to pat yourself on the back
Speaker 1:<laugh>, uh, if, well, I, I, I will not be taking on a, losing this streak or even lose one day is, you know, this is, this is what's gonna happen here. I'm just name speaking that and putting it onto the universe, speak it. Um, but if it, if it happens, I will be taking a long, uh, a long break from all human interaction,<laugh> and, uh, lamenting as I do
Speaker 2:Camping. Dan's off in the woods weeping.
Speaker 1:That's right. That's right. Yeah. Well, we wanna share with you folks, an exciting programming note is that we are currently working very hard on producing a special fifth season of this podcast. You thought the other seasons were special. Let me tell you, this fifth season, uh, gives new meaning to the word special, and we can't wait to tell you more about that. Uh, but in the meantime, uh, Bethany, you wanna tell'em what we're up to in the meantime?
Speaker 2:Well, Dan and I went back and we were having a conversation about some of our most favorite conversations, or the conversations that people bring up to us, like when we were at the CMC conference, or N CTM folks, when we talk about the podcast, they're like, oh, I loved this one. Oh, I love this one. And that to me, just like, I don't know, that is exciting. And so, while we're putting together this new season over these next few weeks, we're gonna feature a few of our favorite conversations from our first four seasons, Dan Four Seasons.
Speaker 1:We've been at this for Four Seasons. And I, I do want to just emphasize something you said, Bethany, that the, all of our conversations are our favorite conversations. They're all our special children. Um, what we just felt like you, the listeners, did not quite learn enough from some of these. And so we really needed you to hear them again, to make sure you got everything that you should get out of them. So, uh, let's tell'em who's up first. And, uh, who's up first is our, uh, conversation we had about problem solving with Fon Wyn, who's an advanced math team specialist here at Amplify. Been a former math coach, math teacher. Just really done the work, uh, is what I'd say about Fawn. If
Speaker 2:You have been listening to this podcast, you're like, whoa, whoa. Wait, I have not missed an episode. I didn't hear F's interview. That is because we used to be video only, not podcasts. So this conversation with Fawn was from, you know, what our second season Yeah. And we were on video. And another thing about it is it was like, this is a conversation that when folks talk about problem solving, a lot of the responses we've gotten are like, wait, I've never thought of problem solving this way. So in fact, you'll hear us say that exact thing,<laugh>. So we really appreciated the time with Fawn. And yeah,
Speaker 1:Uh, enjoy it. Folks. Es especially enjoy F's. I think a four-part definition of problem solving a word that's often kind of muy defined. And Fawn really goes into, I think, precision and depth on it. So hope you folks enjoy it.
Speaker 3:Give away Fon to the camera. Would you? Cool.<laugh>, uh, fawn, uh, fawn has been a teacher for a very long time. Like she is someone who could have left the classroom at any point and taken any number of jobs in the math teaching universe. But, um, I've always admired that Fawn has, um, taught kids for a very long time. Uh, and that has given her, in my view, just a lot of clarity on what is important to her about students. I've seen like her not get upset or obsessed with certain kinds of small niche issues that a lot of us, like they get a lot of us down in the classroom sometimes, and she's maintained a laser focus on among many other things problem solving as, uh, a virtue, uh, in mathematics classroom. So, uh, please welcome fond to our show. Fon, thanks so much for being here.
Speaker 4:Hey, thank you so much. Thank you. I am so excited and honored that you guys invited me for this. Bethany and
Speaker 2:Dan. Yeah. Thank you for being here.
Speaker 4:Yeah, love you, Dan. I can tolerate, but I love you and
Speaker 3:I, I really worked myself up there on that complimentary opening for you, and that's how you, how you get me back here. Okay. Problem solving is, uh, is fully on the consciousness of math teachers. Every math teacher knows that they need to say that. Say like, yeah. Oh, problem solving. Yes. Uh, love it. Uh, do it, uh, dig it. Um, and, but even so, I feel like it's become that kind of like, it's become kind of a buzzword. Like it's not always obvious, like what that means, or am I doing problem solving, really? So I we're curious, uh, as a, as someone who is a problem solving expert, who is, you know, asked all over the world to like, talk about problem solving. Like, how do I know if I'm doing problem solving in my classroom?
Speaker 4:This is my, not my definition of it, but nor am I an expert, by the way, Dan. Thank you. But I, I tried really, really hard<laugh> and to work on it. Uh, my definition, um, or it's not my definition, but I like it because it's short and honest, is, uh, problem solving is what we do when we don't know what to do. And so, um, ooh, with that frame, mind frame, I'm hoping teachers, um, think more about what their tasks, because I think it gets mislabeled a lot as to what is problem solving. If if the kids already know what to do, there's a solution path, then it, it's not problem solving.
Speaker 3:Yeah. So what are examples then? Like, uh, an example of like, I might call something problem solving, but like, it it fails that particular definition that you just proposed there. Very short, very honest definition.
Speaker 4:Just, yeah. Um, it, it, it needs to have, um, constraint and contradiction to what the kids think naturally. It, it should become as a surprise. There's an element of surprise in it. There's tension,
Speaker 3:Maybe like if there's a harder numbers or like, you know, decimals are fractions in the same kind of procedure, um, I can, I can feel myself like thinking, yeah, this is hard. This is problem solving. Problem solving equals hard. Um, but we already know what to do.
Speaker 4:Or, or it just word problems. I, that's the most common thing. As soon as it, it just has words attached to the math, it becomes a problem solving. But that's just coding it to me, that's just coding it with words, wrapping it around. It doesn't mean anything until we read through and see if it's, you know, there's true problem solving in it.
Speaker 2:Like, what's the moment that it becomes problem solving in, in the way that you, you envision it?
Speaker 4:Well, I think, well, there, there's the bigger problem solving of really bringing a task, I wanna call it left field. It just, um, you know, you, we rarely ever, if ever see it in the, the regular coursework, but it can also be problem solving if we just take what we expect the children to do at the end of the unit. How about we front load? That to me, that's also problem solving. Hmm. So that, uh, and I'm, I'm trying to encourage, um, teachers to bring, um, do that last problem first. The task writers put more thought, not that they don't do the rest of it, but you know, this is a special one because they label it challenge or enrichment or, uh, are you ready for more? I've seen those. And, um, so it is this really special problem, and I would love for the, um, for us to think about do that first. Because my biggest fear is that because it comes at the end that not all the children are, are involved. And so that to me is, is the saddest part, is, um, because we might not get to it, right? In mathematics, we always think, okay, well let's do these problems and then we don't have time for the rest. But I think that's your richest task right there is at the very end. So why don't we front load it, start it, and it's okay if, of course it's okay that we don't all get it, but the exposure to all students is, is, is so important. Talk about, um, you know, equity talk about, um, that everybody gets the same thing if everyone dug into that first one with everybody's collaboration, and we get to share that, and then we leave it because yeah, okay, now we learn more the other stuff, right? That, that hopefully support and then we can go back and now everybody had a chance to go get into it, and then we can, um, come back to it as, as many problems we need to go back to
Speaker 2:It. And that feels so powerful because it feels like it's, as a teacher, I'm thinking it would also inform my work, how I approach the, the unit and how I approach the, the next steps, right? Like, what kind of work would we be, be doing it. Like I, if I let it, if I allow it to, to change the way that I approach the unit.
Speaker 3:Yeah. What you're describing is so powerful and really ask a lot of the task designers as well. I think, like you can't, there are problem solving tasks that like really require like abstract knowledge of the way formula and variables fit together. And what I love about like what, what what Amplify is doing with their problem solving, what you're helping them do is that they start with a, like a true low floor that like, can draw in every student and they might get stuck at different places, that's fine. But everyone has a way in that's exciting.
Speaker 4:It's a big deal for me to have this opportunity and, um, this trust, um, to, into great problem solving into the, the curriculum, make it intentional. It it's difficult to implement. It is to be honest, because for me, what is a good task, this is makes one of my four, um, uh, criteria. One is, um, it is non-routine. Um, it is, um, simply stated, simply stated, that's like your low floor and then has multiple solutions. And the fourth, this makes it because that the teacher en enjoys solving it. And so you have to enjoy solving it to bring it, because, so that, that way I can say to my kids, this is my gift. It really is because, you know, I i, it has so much fun, joy, and I appreciate the struggle. And I, I wanna, um, illustrate an example. For example, let's say Dan and I are classmates. And, um, I know that Dan gets a's on his test and, uh, the lowest, you know, score he ever got was an 89%. I, on the other hand, just sitting right next to him, I average d i, you know, I have a D average on everything while Bethany, our amazing and wonderful teacher brings in a problem. And when she brings it in, she says, I worked on this problem. I got, I found this problem, I worked on it, and I struggle with it. And it's, it was amazing. I enjoyed it so much. I'm sharing it with you. And all of a sudden it's like, okay, and I'm, I'm sitting there, right? My teacher loves this problem so much, she's bringing it in to share with us. And now all of a sudden, and it, it's not, you know, and I know she only gives us non-routine. She, when she talks about problem solving, it's non-routine. So it's not directly tied to the textbook that I've been struggling with. So this is, it gives me a chance, it gives me a chance to contribute, to think differently. And, and now for suddenly I look forward to working with Dan, because in this space, in this problem solving space, Dan is no longer Mr. Know-it-all. And so it, it, and I, and that's what I mean by I I am saying this for a hundred of times and I will not stop saying it, which is problem solving levels, the playing field, our world is filled with unsolved problems. Are you kidding me? Right? We, we look around as we have so many things that are not solvable or people are working on it, and yet in mathematics what happens, the bell rings, we start and we, we solve everything during that time and we leave. And, and that's, yeah. And no, I, I know we, we need to wrestle with problems.
Speaker 1:And that was our conversation with Fon Wynn, which we first released way back in November, 2021. You folks can follow Fawn on Twitter at Fon pw. Um, that's at F A W N p N G U Y E N.
Speaker 2:So our episode today is a double feature. We are featuring another conversation that we loved from season two. This is a conversation with Christie Herman Thompson and Kasia Alejandro Wieden. They're authors of the book, hands down, speak out, listening and talking across literacy and math. And I don't know if you remember, but not only did we have a conversation with them, but we did a whole book study on Facebook, a Facebook live book study over the course of several months. And it was one of my most favorite things. And then they did a webinar at the end. So like, our conversation with them on the podcast for me felt like such a, just a beautiful dive into their book. And you know, I've said it before, like, you think you have something down in the classroom, you're like, oh, hand raising, I've got that down. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, you think you have it down, but then somebody says, okay, but have you ever considered this? You know, and it
Speaker 1:Just, not that
Speaker 2:<laugh>, not that something totally different. And I loved talking with them. They're, they're a lot of fun. And I loved the
Speaker 1:Book. Wonderful conversation, great book. Very provocative ideas. Yeah. As someone who's like, okay, classroom management, I gotta get the hand raising going, uh, in the classroom before we talked, they offered a really potent challenge to some really standard classroom management ideas. Yeah. Loved it.
Speaker 2:And this conversation also offers some really practical tips for facilitating student conversations. So we think you'll enjoy it. Here's our conversation with Christie and Kasia. So today we are talking about hands down, speak out, listening and talking across literacy and math K through five. And we have the authors here, Kasia Majandra, wi Akin, and Christie Herman Thompson. Before we begin, let's define what a hands down conversation is. A hands down conversation is just another way to structure discourse in your classroom. So in a typical classroom, you might see students raising their hand and waiting on a teacher to call on them before they share their ideas or engage in discussion. But in a hands down conversation, it's students ideas and voices that are taking the lead, and teachers are stepping back and focusing on listening and facilitating. Hello, welcome to the Lounge.
Speaker 4:Thank you. We're excited to be here. We're fans of, uh, season one. So we're,
Speaker 5:Again,
Speaker 3:I was a secondary teacher and, but I still found so much to love about the book. I think facilitating conversations and is just generally challenging and perhaps even more so in, in math, where answers feel so tightly dialed in, in lots of ways. Um, but I loved it. I would love for you to just explain to our audience, like what is a hands down conversation and how does that contrast with like, what might be standard practice for some people? For some classes,
Speaker 6:We just u started using the term hands down conversation because we wanted to differentiate the fact that there are different times to have different types of dialogue in the math classroom, in the literacy classroom. And we use this as one of our tools, right? It's not like that every day, all day long. We're very against hand raising and should never see that again. We find that having this as one of our tools will be where we make really clear to the students that this is a moment where we're turning it over to you to negotiate the space and make the decisions about when your voice comes in and who speaks next. You know, carry on kind of like that dinner table or that playground or, you know, whatever is your natural habitat for talk. Um, and bringing that into the classroom and then hoping that it also someday transfers back out of the classroom back into the real world.
Speaker 2:For the teachers who feel like that's terrifying to have students just start speaking and speaking without any sort of control or my little equity sticks, my little popsicle sticks or my popcorn or whatever other thing they're using, what would you say is the first step?
Speaker 6:So I think like recognizing and naming that fear is part of it. And then saying to yourself, what's the worst that could happen here? Um, you know, I, I think the worst that could happen is that nobody talks and it's totally silent. Or on the other hand, everybody talks at the same time, and both of those things will happen. And so what, it's gonna be messy, and if you just acknowledge that it's gonna look messy and that, you know, that that's part of growing, that every child as they learn and every adult is messy as they grow.
Speaker 5:And we have to see what kinds of things will happen in a hands down conversation. Like there's no, there's no prerequisite. You just, you just start and then you see what happens. And those are the signs that tell you like, what can help this community grow as talkers? And listeners, if everyone's talking at the same time and they're kind of, um, pushing each other over with their words by saying, I have something to add, I have something to add, or something like that, that's a common thing that sometimes happens at the beginning, then you know that the next step is to do some work about how to, um, hold your thoughts back, how to add, wait for a space in the conversation to talk. And those are all things we need people to know out in the world.
Speaker 2:So can you give an example of a micro lesson that, well, first, what do you define as a, a micro lesson? And then what's an example of one that maybe somebody who wants to dip their toe into the world of hands down conversations that they could try?
Speaker 6:Um, the reason we call them micro lessons is because we wanted to differentiate from the, the term mini lesson, which is out there and tends to, uh, um, describe about 10 or 15 minutes that might take place at the beginning of a spec of a, of a work period of time. And this is, um, much smaller than that. We usually follow a pretty predictable structure of naming. Here's this thing that's so helpful when we're having conversations, and we love to especially be able to name something that a student has done. Kaylee did this yesterday and it really helped us. So what we might call that is, and then here's how Kaylee and other people might do that. They might do something like this, and, you know, having a little anchor chart, so there's a visual reminder of that skill. So when we're having a conversation today, you could try and that's basically, uh, a micro lesson just in a nutshell.
Speaker 5:When I was doing these hands down conversations and I had more space for myself to listen as a teacher, I'm like, well, look at those kids, like slumped onto the ground, like pulling the carpet apart, but they're having like this amazing conversation. And so I learned that listening is a lot broader. So in this lesson that I'm thinking about, we just talk with kids about what are lots of different ways that listening can look like. Um, sometimes with younger kids, I'll take pictures of them listening in different ways and we'll notice things about them together. And then we invite them to talk with their Turning Talk partner about like, how do you like to be listened to? Or Tell me about how you listen. Um, and just kind of broaden that. And really, I like to think that like the micro lessons are for the kids, but also I'm saying those things to say them for myself. Like, remember, like, you don't have to insist that kids are staring each other down in the eyes all the time. Like, it's okay when they're doing, when they're doing other things. There's other ways of listening. So I think the mi I've learned as much from the micro lessons each time I do them as the kids that I'm trying to help grow as listeners and talkers as well.
Speaker 3:You folks are, have a lot of really, um, eloquent ideals you express around democratic classrooms and engagement, but you also have like just some very tangible, practical, even down to like how a teacher positions their body and space and the way they use their eyes to connect. Um, I think it would be really helpful for teachers to hear that it's not just they're signing on to a, a manifesto of sorts, but there, there's like ways they can act their way into the beliefs that you both, uh, express here.
Speaker 6:When I'm starting hands down conversation work, if I put myself a little bit outside of the circle and look down, um, and give myself a clipboard, it, it helps me bite my tongue and it helps me, um, give better wait time and see what the kids are doing before I have that tendency to jump, jump in and teach and do lots of teachery things.
Speaker 2:Kaia and Christie, thank you so much for joining us. We are so excited to have this conversation and to share your, your work. This is exciting and I feel like this conversation is just the beginning of a deeper dive into this book. Thanks
Speaker 6:For having us. Thank you. Thank
Speaker 1:You both.
Speaker 2:Thanks so much for listening to our conversations with Fon Nuen and Christie Herman Thompson and Kasia Alejandro Vien, both of which were released in 2021, part of our second season. And, you know, we hoped you enjoyed listening to it for a first second, maybe third, fourth time.
Speaker 1:Let's be real. There's some real fans out there.
Speaker 2:We loved it then. We love it now,<laugh>. Yep,
Speaker 1:Yep, yep. Please, uh, keep in touch with the show by following us on Twitter at MTL show and join our Facebook group, the Math Teacher Lounge community. We'd love to hear from you there. And please stay tuned for more info on what we're cooking up here in the Math Teacher Lounge. Thank you folks for listening. Take care, Bethany.
Speaker 2:Bye now.
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